HMT 'Commonwealth' July 1917, Devonport

[smiffy]

Hello again 'pals'

After your terrific response re:Thomas Arthur SMITH the research has now led me on to the nautical route.....so any info/photos from the 'old salts' would be brilliant!

1. He (allegedly)embarked on HMT 'Commonwealth' (a smallish ship I believe) from Devonport on 22/7/1917 bound for Mesopotamia/India......I have had trouble with this one!

2. Admitted to hospital aboard HMT 'Royal George' 17/9/17.

3. Invalided to India aboard HS 'Erinpura' 9/1/18.

4. Embarked for UK & discharge (from Bombay?) aboard 'Manora'??? November 1919.

thanks and regards

Peter

[Terry_Reeves]

Peter

The "Commonwealth" (3,353 tons) was built in 1896 for the Commonwealth Steamship Company, by Furness, Withy and Co. It was torpedoed by a submarine on February 19th 1918, whilst five miles NE of Flamborough Head. 14 men were killed.

Source: Dictionary of Disasters at Sea, Charles Hocking.

TR

[ARABIS]

Hello Peter,

The British India Steam Navigation Co. had a passenger ship of 5,100 tons, launched 1911 named Erinpura in their fleet. It might be the same one as a lot of merchant ships were used as hospital/hospital carrier ships.

Regards,

ARABIS.

[historydavid]

Hello Peter, to add a little to the above:

The Commonwealth was defensively armed and sunk in position 49.58N, 07.54W by UC 71 with the loss of 14 lives.

I don't have any info on the other vessels, except to say that they are not listed by Colledge, but as far as I can see were not sunk.

Best wishes

David

[Tim]

ss HELIOPOLIS

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built by Fairfield Govan,

Yard No 449

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Last Name: ROYAL GEORGE (1910)

Propulsion: Steam turbine

Launched: Tuesday, 28 May 1907

Built: 1907

Ship Type: Passenger Cargo Vessel

Tonnage: 11146 grt

Length: 525 feet

Breadth: 60 feet

Owner History:

Egyptian Mail Steamship Company

Status: Scrapped - 1922

Remarks: Scrapped in Germany

The following from www.shipslist.com: laid up in Marseilles in 1909 and offered for sale. In 1910 she was purchased by Canadian Northern Steamships of Toronto and renamed ROYAL GEORGE. Refitted for North Atlantic service, she commenced Avonmouth Quebec Montreal sailings on 26th May 1910. On 6th Nov.1912 she stranded near Quebec, was refloated and sailed for Halifax for further repairs on 12th Dec. and then proceeded to Liverpool. She resumed Avonmouth

Quebec Montreal voyages on 17th Jun.1913. On 3rd Oct.1914 she sailed from Gaspe Bay for Plymouth with part of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and was then taken over as a British troopship. The fleet was purchased by Cunard SS Co in 1916, but the ROYAL GEORGE continued trooping for the rest of the war. She resumed passenger voyages on 10th Feb.1919 when she started the first of five Liverpool Halifax New York sailings and started her first Southampton

Halifax New York voyage on 15th Aug.1919. Her ninth and last voyage on this service commenced 10th Jun.1920 and she was then used as an emigrant depot ship at Cherbourg

It's sister ship Royal Edward built in 1907, 11,117 tons, ex- Cairo, 1910 also purchased from defunct Egyptian Mail SS Co. and renamed. In 1915 torpedoed and sunk in the Aegean Sea; loss of 935 lives.

Source: The ClydeBuilt Database & The Ships List

[Tim]

ss ERINPURA

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built by William Denny & Brothers Dumbarton,

Yard No 945

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Propulsion: twin screw driven by two sets of triple expansion engines

Launched: Monday, 09 October 1911

Built: 1911

Ship Type: Passenger Cargo Vessel

Ship's Role: Passenger & Cargo

Tonnage: 5128 grt

Length: 411 feet

Breadth: 52 feet 6

Draught: 23 feet 5

Owner History: British India Steam Navigation Company Glasgow & London

Status: Bombed & Sunk - 01/05/1943

Remarks:

Ambulance carrier and hospital ship WWI. On 15/06/1919 whilst steaming bewteen Aden to Port Said stranded on Mushjera Reef during storm, remained fast for one year plus.

Sept 1920 cut in two stern salvaged. Taken to Bombay and new forward half built on. Returned to service 1923.

Sunk by air attack on 1/5/1943 while trooping Alexandria to Malta in position 32.40N 19.53E

Source: ClydeBuilt Database

More info on this remarkable ship can be found Here

[Tim]

ss MANORA (III)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

built by Barclay Curle & Company Glasgow,

Yard No 502

Engines by Barclay Curle & Company, Glasgow

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Propulsion: Steam - Triple Expansion - Twin Screw - 13 knots

Launched: Tuesday, 06 May 1913

Built: 1913

Ship Type: Passenger Cargo Vessel

Tonnage: 7875 grt

Length: 449.7 feet

Breadth: 58.2 feet

Owner History: British India Steam Navigation Company Glasgow & London

Scrapped at Genoa, Italy on 23/1/1932

Photo from website http://www.merchantnavyofficers.com

[tonyblackpool]

COMMONWEALTH .TONY

http://www.photoship.co.uk/

[smiffy]

'Commonwealth'

Terry Reeves ........ 3353 tons sounds right.

any way of checking embarkation from Devonport for Meso/India abt. 22/7/17?

historydavid .............yep probably Feb 19 1918 (only 6 months later) 5 miles NE of Flanborough Head.

any ideas on:- 330x 45 - 1 x 18-7?

260 n.h.p.?

8 - 5 knots, any reason why this way round?

tony blackpool.......I don't think this was the one.

thanks guys, brilliant response and I'll try to respond to the other three ships asap....time short right now.

regards

Peter

[Esskay]

Hi Peter - Shipping Intelligence reports had started again in The Times by the end of 1919 - if it was the Manora - she was mentioned 3 times that I could see on the voyage that seems likely (from a quick look at the online edition)

No departure date I could find from Bombay - but she was reported to have arrived Suez 9th December (from Bombay for London), left Port Said 11th December (for London and Antwerp) and arrived Plymouth 21st December (from Bombay)

FindmyPast passenger lists show she sailed from London to Bombay on 18th October 1919 - with just 2 passengers - and 200 crew

Cheers

Sue

[Tim]

Tony's photo is of HMAT Commonwealth.

ss COMMONWEALTH

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

built by Barclay Curle & Company Glasgow,

Yard No 432

Engines by Shipbuilders

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of Registry: London

Propulsion: Two three cylinder triple expansion steam engines, 4000ihp, twin screw, 13.5 knots.

Launched: Saturday, 23 August 1902

Built: 1902

Ship Type: Passenger Liner

Tonnage: 6616 gross; 4176 net

Length: 450ft 3in

Breadth: 52ft 3in

Owner History: Wilhelm Lund, London

1910 Peninsular & Oriental S.N. Co.

Status: Sold for Scrapping - 12/04/1923

Remarks:

23/08/1902: Launched for Wilhelm Lund, London.

10/1902: Completed. An advance on Lund’s earlier emigrant vessels, COMMONWEALTH was aimed at a better class of traveller. 75 saloon class passengers were accommodated in the bridge, and there were 300 third class berths.

1905: Registered in the ownership of Blue Anchor Line Ltd. (W Lund and Sons, managers).

06/04/1910: Purchased for £77,569 by The Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company.

15/09/1910: Maiden P&O sailing.

1915~1917: Australian Expeditionary Force transport.

1917: Atlantic “ferry” service.

19XX: Laid up at Falmouth.

12/04/1923: Sold for £14,100 to Stabilimento Metallurgica Ligure S A, Italy for demolition at Spezia, the last survivor of the Blue Anchor Line fleet acquired by P&O.

[historydavid]

Peter, in response to your queries, I interpret the figures as follows:

probably Feb 19 1918, definitely.

330x 45 - 1 x 18-7, size of ship in old money ie feet and inches.

260 n.h.p., nominal horsepower.

8 - 5 knots, 8.5 knots (these numbers come from Charles Hocking, and the typesetter for the book was a trifle quirky).

Best wishes

David

[smiffy]

Arabis........thanks re 'Erinpura', 5,100 tons ties up with Tim's findings.

Tim Pruyn ......thanks for all your valued information on all FOUR ships incl. of course photos!

re:- 'Royal George', I had arrived at similar photograph, but had no knowledge at all that it originally was the 'ss Heliopolis'.

'Erinpura' and 'Manora' great info, thanks

'Commonwealth', I was working on it being a smallish ship and thought that Terry Reeves findings 3353 tons might have been correct. Have we any way of ascertaining which are correct details/photo?

Esskay (Sue) ........thanks for 'Manora' dates, they seem to fit perfectly.

historydavid .........thanks for the explanations (I had guessed at the the 8-5 knots, now confirmed).

ALL,

I suppose any further lists re:- troop movements/regiments(ASC), disemarkation dates?, on these ships would prove immensely difficult.

but as a reminder the only dates(approximate?) I have are as follows:-

22/7/17 Embarkation on HMT 'Commonwealth' from Devonport (for Meso/India)

17/9/17 Admitted to hospital 'Royal George'

21/9/17 Transferred to hospital at Basra.

09/1/18 Invalided to India on H.S. 'Erinpura'

28/11/19 Embarked (from Bombay?) for UK on 'Manora'

24/12/19 London, given 28days furlough prior to final discharge.

Thanks again everyone!

Peter

[Tim]

Peter,

The photo and info that I posted of "Commonwealth" is for/of HMAT Commonwealth. As the info states it survived the war, unlike HMT Commonwealth which was sunk. HMAT Commonwealth finished her war service on 23 June 1917.

Also HMAT Commonwealth was built some 6 years later than HMT Commonwealth and the shipbuilders are both different. Also the tonnage is different too, HMAT Commonwelath being almost twice the size in tonnage than HMT Commonwealth.

And finally AFAIK, HMAT Commonwealth was not defensively armed.

Does any of the above make sense?

Cheers,

Tim

[smiffy]

Peter,

The photo and info that I posted of "Commonwealth" is for/of HMAT Commonwealth. As the info states it survived the war, unlike HMT Commonwealth which was sunk. HMAT Commonwealth finished her war service on 23 June 1917.

Also HMAT Commonwealth was built some 6 years later than HMT Commonwealth and the shipbuilders are both different. Also the tonnage is different too, HMAT Commonwelath being almost twice the size in tonnage than HMT Commonwealth.

And finally AFAIK, HMAT Commonwealth was not defensively armed.

Does any of the above make sense?

Cheers,

Tim

Tim, thanks so much for your interest.

A couple of points though.

1. When you stated in one of your posts above that 'Tony's photo is that of HMAT Commonwealth I took it to mean that YOUR photo was of a different ship, but they both appear to be very similar to me.

2. If, as you state, HMAT Commonwealth finished her war service on 23 June 1917, from the dates I posted above (namely embarked 22 July 1917) then it definitely is NOT our one.

3. Is it possible that you can pursue the 3,353 ton 'Commonwealth', that Terry Reeves referred to?

Thanks a million.

Peter

[smiffy]

Hi everyone, just a few updates and further HELP required!

1. Our 'Commonwealth' is NOT the HMAT version, but the 3,353 ton vessel mentioned by Terry Reeves and history david ............so any more info, particularly a photo would be great.

2. Tim Pruyn, re:- ss Heliopolis/'Royal George', just need convincing, as this ship seemed to have Canadian connections, but was taken over as a troopship, that its theatre of war was NOT just the Atlantic?

3. 'Erinpura' looks good (thanks Tim)

4. 'Manora' also looks good (again Tim) but strongly supported by Esskay (thanks Sue) as her Shipping Intelligence from The Times has it arriving in Plymouth 21st Dec from Bombay, and on the 24th he,Thomas, was in London and given a 28 days furlough prior to final discharge.

So, all hands to the deck, as it were, on the smaller 'Commonwealth'.

Thanks

Peter

[Esskay]

smiffy said:

2. Tim Pruyn, re:- ss Heliopolis/'Royal George', just need convincing, as this ship seemed to have Canadian connections, but was taken over as a troopship, that its theatre of war was NOT just the Atlantic?

Thanks

Peter

The 2nd post in this thread from 2004 suggests Royal George certainly visited the sub continent

 

and this one from 2006 suggests she was at Gallipoli in 1915

 

Certainly not proof that this is the right vessel - but does look like she went away from the North Atlantic

Cheers

Sue

[smiffy]

Sue, thanks so much for that........ it's starting to look very likely!

Now, is anyone able to post a PHOTO of our 3353 ton HMT 'Commonwealth'?

Peter

[spithead]

'Commonwealth'

Terry Reeves ........ 3353 tons sounds right.

any way of checking embarkation from Devonport for Meso/India abt. 22/7/17?

historydavid .............yep probably Feb 19 1918 (only 6 months later) 5 miles NE of Flanborough Head.

any ideas on:- 330x 45 - 1 x 18-7?

260 n.h.p.?

8 - 5 knots, any reason why this way round?

tony blackpool.......I don't think this was the one.

thanks guys, brilliant response and I'll try to respond to the other three ships asap....time short right now.

regards

Peter

Hello Peter

Tony's picture is of the 12096ton S.S. Commonwealth of the Domminion Line built in 1900. She transfered to the White Star Line in 1903 and was renamed Canopic. Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstanding between the two pictures.

S.S Commonwealth / Canopic

Regards John

[smiffy]

Spithead John,

Thanks for coming aboard!

It's probably me ......but I would very much like a picture of the 3353 ton 'Commonwealth'

I've probably missed something here!

Peter

[Stebie9173]

The Royal George delivered the 1/4th Northamptons to Lemnos for shuttle to Gallipoli in July-August 1915, via Gibraltar, Malta and Alexandria. The Royal Edward a few hours behind was sunk by a German submarine. The Edward and George were twin ships, and ran the same course up to August 1915. I have the book "Fastest to Canada" by Richard Olliff, about the Royal Edward, and will post some more info on the two ships when I am back in a bit later...

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

My brief notes on the Royal George (mainly from the perspective of her service as a troopship up to 1915):

The Royal George and Royal Edward

Sister ships, the Royal George and Royal Edward both followed the same path to the 13th August 1915. Built in 1907 and 1908 the ships were constructed for the Egyptian Mail and Steamship Company's service between Marseilles and Alexandria, the names of the vessels then being the the Heliopolis and Cairo respectively. After a season's service both ships were purchased by Canadian Northern Steamships Limited and were employed for the mail service between Avonmouth and Montreal. In 1914 both ships were requisitioned as troop ships, the Royal George bringing the P.P.C.L.I. to England from Quebec on the 27th September 1914, with the Royal Edward transporting the 11th Battalion C.E.F. The Royal Edward also served as an internment ship for German nationals.

On 30th July 1915 the Royal George sailed from Devonport, followed by the Royal Edward. After stops at Malta and Alexandria the two ships sailed one after the other for Mudros. The Royal George carrying the 1/4th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment made it safely to Mudros on 13th August 1915. The Royal Edward, several hours behind, suffered a different fate. On the morning of the 13th August 1915 she was intercepted by a German U-Boat, U14 operating from Bodrum under the command of Lt Commander Heino von Heimburg, whilst steaming north through the Dodecanese Islands (a third of the way between Crete and Lemnos). At around 9am, with the ship 6 miles west of the island of Kandelioussa, a single torpedo struck the troopship's stern sending the Royal Edward to the bottom of the Mediterranaen Sea in around five minutes, with the loss of 132 crew and approximately 800 men, the majority of which were reinforcements for the 1st Battalion of the Essex Regiment, and the 2nd Battalion of the Hampshire Regiment. Approximately 500 men did manage to escape the stricken ship in the liner's boats. The lost men of the Royal Edward are remembered on the Helles Memorial on the Gallipoli Peninsular.

The town and county of Northampton escaped considerable tragedy on the morning of the 13th August 1915. The whole 1/4th battalion, barring the transport section, was aboard the Royal George the vast majority of whom were local Northamptonshire men. Had the fates decreed that U14 should cross paths with the George rather than the Edward then up to a thousand Northamptonshire lives could have been lost in a few minutes. Instead, the burden of grief fell on Hampshire and Norfolk (most of the Essex Regiment men hailed from Norfolk and had been transferred to the Essex Regiment from the Norfolk Regiment not long before). Northamptonshire did suffer some loss from the sinking, since some of the R.A.M.C. lives lost were those of men of the East Anglian Casualty Clearing Station of 54th Division, a number of whom hailed from the county.

The Royal George continued as a troopship after its narrow escape, surviving the war and returning to Trans-Atlantic service with Cunard in 1919. It was finally scrapped in 1922, after seeing final service as an Emigrant Depot ship at Cherbourg.

Royal George

S/S Royal George, Cunard Line. Tonnage, 11,146 gross. Built 1907 at Glasgow by Fairfield Shipbuilding & Eng. Co. Ltd. Dimensions 525.8ft x 60.2ft; May 28, 1907 : launched as the "Heliopolis" for British owners; 1910: Renamed "Royal George" for Canadian Northern Railway Co.; 1916: Taken over by Cunard from Canadian Northern Railway Co.; Feb. 10 1919: first voyage Liverpool - Halifax - New York, nicknamed "Rolling George"; Aug. 15 1919: first voyage Southampton - Halifax - New York; 1920: Emigrant depot ship at Cherbourg; 1922: Scrapped at Wilhelmshaven

Royal Edward

S/S Royal Edward, Cunard Line. Tonnage, 11,117 gross. Built 1908 at Glasgow by Fairfield Shipbuilding & Eng. Co. Ltd. Dimensions 526.1ft x 60.2ft; 1908 : launched as the "Cairo" for British owners; 1910: Renamed "Royal Edward" for Canadian Northern Railway Co.; Troop ship from 1914; Torpedoed by UB.14 on 13th August 1915, 6 miles west of Kandelioussa, Dodecanese Islands, Aegean Sea in position 36.13N, 25.51E. Carrying troops and government stores from Avonmouth & Alexandria to Mudros. Sank with the loss of 935 lives. 132 crew plus Army reinforcements - mainly troops of the 2nd Battalion Hampshire Regiment and 1st Battalion Essex Regiment and R.A.M.C. men of 29th Division.

Steve.

[smiffy]

Steve (Stebie9173)

Thanks for the above on 'Royal George'.

So everyone, is there now enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that is 'our' ship?

17/9/17 Admitted to hospital 'Royal George'

21/9/17 Admitted to hospital Basra.

That just leaves what is proving to be the most difficult.......

Photos/etc for HMT 'Commonwealth' 3353 tons, built 1896.

cheers

Peter

[Tim]

Pretty good aren't we Peter?

I'm starting to wonder if Commonwealth is perhaps the 2nd name given to the ship.

I'll keep digging. I enjoy this type of stuff! Actually I think most people on here do!

Cheers,

Tim

[smiffy]

Peter, in response to your queries, I interpret the figures as follows:

probably Feb 19 1918, definitely.

330x 45 - 1 x 18-7, size of ship in old money ie feet and inches.

260 n.h.p., nominal horsepower.

8 - 5 knots, 8.5 knots (these numbers come from Charles Hocking, and the typesetter for the book was a trifle quirky).

Best wishes

David

David,

For an idiot, please 'spell out' the size of the ship.

thanks

Peter

[......and WHO will come up with a photo of the smaller 'Commonwealth'?]