Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

ASC Service numbers


blue

Recommended Posts

Ah, yes, the mysterious "Petrol" prefix! It is all revealed here - https://ia601400.us.archive.org/20/items/shellthathitgerm00smit/shellthathitgerm00smit.pdf

 

When the Shell company moved their can making/filling operation from the UK to France, they needed a labour force. For some reason, the solution was to create a "Cadet Corps" and place them under the ASC. A very unusual arrangement! There are several discussions about this in the British Medal Forum. 

 

All the best,

 

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Gary,

This is from the book:

59c2e5d1cc8ed_ShellPetrolCorps.png.b3948609923be1f0900f83abefb6d7cb.png

 

I had a look in Mike Young but couldn't find anything about the Shell Petrol Corps do you know if they were given a company number?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding is that only the transport units (HT and MT) were organized into companies. The Severn Cadet Corps was a unit in its own right, although quite a different one! If you search the MICs using "Petrol", I thimk you will find that they were assigned numbers in three or four number blocks. I have no ideal why that was!

 

All the best,

 

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking down the pages of the Shell book, after the facility at Rouen was set up, a second one was established at Calais and both were expanded, this may account for the extra blocks of numbers being allocated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possibly...or...perhaps some men were recruited elsewhere because they had the required skills? We will probably hever know.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I have recently acquired a £1 subscription to Ancestry so can do some more work on the ASC MT numbers.

 

Numbers 106501 to 112000 were allocated to horse transport, remounts, supply etc.

 

M2 Prefix numbers 6th Block


The next block of MT numbers differs from previous blocks in that there are two distinct sets of DM2 numbers and two distinct sets of M2 numbers. The block begins with DM2 prefixes starting at DM2/112001 Private William Henry Woodley. This DM2 set of numbers ends at DM2/113000 Private John S Cotton. The M2 numbers start at 113001, the first MIC is for M2/113003 Private George H Goodacre. These M2 numbers end at M2/117600 Private Frederick W Coley. Then the second set of DM2 numbers starts with DM2/117601 Private Isor Davies and ends with DM2/118601 Private Frank Broad. The second set of M2 numbers starts with M2/118605 Private Robert W Green the last MIC is for M2/121989 Private Albert L Firth, the block ends at 122000.

 

These numbers (112001 to 122000) were allocated from June to the end of September 1915, just before the Derby scheme started.

 

There are some anomalies for example:

 

M2/113003 Pte George Henry Goodacre
M2/113091 Pte Clement John Mardon

Both of whom attested in Leicester 19th May 1915

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the anomolies above, both have a previous number crossed out on their attestation form, Pte Mardon 106591, Pte Goodacre also begins 1065 but the last 2 digits are not visible, these numbers are from the previous HT, Supply and Remounts block, so it looks like they initially signed up for HT, remounts or Supply in May, then transferred to MT in early September 1915. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

M2 Prefix numbers 7th Block
Up to mid October 1915, generally speaking a man attested and within a day or two turned up at Grove Park or Osterley Park and after a short period of training found himself in the field. The introduction of the Derby Scheme changed all that; men now attested and were put on a reserve list, so the time lapse between attestation and call up could be several months (details of the Derby scheme can be found on the parent site ‘The Long Long Trail’).


Numbers 122001 to 129500 were allocated to horse transport, remounts, supply etc.


The next block of MT numbers begins with a set of DM2 prefixes DM2/129501 to DM2/130500 and a set of M2 prefixes M2/130501 to M2/134600. The latter part of these numbers were allocated after the Derby Scheme began on the 15th October, however none of the service records I sampled had the new Derby scheme form (B2512) and all were posted to either Osterley Park or Grove Park within a couple of days. All the learner drivers (DM2) went to Osterley Park, the Fitters, Turners, wheelers etc. (M2) went to Grove Park.

 

The next set of numbers in this block were prefixed DM2 from DM2/134601 to 135600 and M2 from M2/135601 to 135900 and cover the period from mid-October to early November 1915. Again most of these were not Derby Scheme reservists.


The only service record I found in this block on the new Derby Scheme form (B2512) was DM2/138132 Pte John Legg who attested 13th November 1915 but was called up for driver training at Osterley Park 4th February 1916.  

 

59f3210a31b61_B2512JohnLegg19151113.png.d1ced86341589c1b324d9c6c1240a7de.png

 

Note the Card No. box on the right, I believe the number 3 represents group 3 single men born 1895; Pte Legg was age 20 and single when he attested.

 

Edited by Gardenerbill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

M2 Prefix Numbers 8th Block
Numbers 139501 to 147100 were allocated to horse transport, remounts, supply etc.
147101 to 157100 allocated to MT early December to mid February as follows:
M2/147101 to M2/151100 Mid-November to early-December
DM2/151101 to DM2/151651 Mid-November to  early-December
M2/151652 to M2/153950 Mid to end of December
DM2/153951 to DM2/155800 Mid December to early February
M2/155801 to M2/157100 Mid Decenber to early February
Of the records sampled only 1 Derby scheme form was found.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

 

On 09/11/2017 at 13:58, Gardenerbill said:

M2 Prefix Numbers 8th Block
Numbers 139501 to 147100 were allocated to horse transport, remounts, supply etc.
147101 to 157100 allocated to MT early December to mid February as follows:
M2/147101 to M2/151100 Mid-November to early-December
DM2/151101 to DM2/151651 Mid-November to  early-December
M2/151652 to M2/153950 Mid to end of December
DM2/153951 to DM2/155800 Mid December to early February
M2/155801 to M2/157100 Mid Decenber to early February
Of the records sampled only 1 Derby scheme form was found.

 

I know this is an old topic but I thought this may be of interest

 

John Hoyland M2/266420

 

I have not been able to find a service record for John. He did not get the 1914/15 Star so was not in a theatre of war before 1916. Having followed this thread it is supprising that the M2 prefix has been used with such a high number. The medal cards do not give any indication of a transfer. On the medal rolls list John is surrounded by other M2 prefixes with six figure numbers starting with 2. I would love to try and work out an approx period of enlistment for John.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi JustVisiting,

Welcome to the forum, the reason I stopped posting in this topic, was because the number blocks were largely datable until the Derby scheme began in October 1915, from then on the soldiers whose numbers were allocated between October 1915 and the end of January 1916, could be called up any time from January right through 1916, and are mixed in with the call up of those who were conscripted. I may return to this when I have more time.   

 

My guess is that John Hoyland was probably called up in September 1916 and he could have been a late Derby scheme call up, the only way to be sure is to look at service records for near numbers. The M2 Prefix seems to stop being used around the beginning of 1917 at approximately M2/270480 when just a single M prefix began to be used. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

Welcome to the forum, the reason I stopped posting in this topic, was because the number blocks were largely datable until the Derby scheme began in October 1915, from then on the soldiers whose numbers were allocated between October 1915 and the end of January 1916, could be called up any time from January right through 1916, and are mixed in with the call up of those who were conscripted. I may return to this when I have more time.   

 

 

Hi,

 

Is there a definative statement anywhere that for Derby Scheme men the number was allocated when they enlisted rather than when they were mobilised. I've done a number of mini-projects where I've looked at the surrounding service numbers for men who signed up under the scheme and the evidence from individual records doesn't seem consistant for when in the process numbers were allocated. It may simply have been the men I've been looking for and individual anomalies which has caused my confusion.

 

I realise the Army needed to keep track of them. However as not all the Derby scheme men got the unit they asked for and some appear to be initially recorded by a recruit number in a few other sources, then either it seems wasteful to allocate the numbers at the outset or it accounts for some of the gaps in service medal rolls which until now I'd assumed was home service only men or number never used.

 

Enlightment most definately welcome,

 

Thanks,

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gardenerbill said:

 My guess is that John Hoyland was probably called up in September 1916 and he could have been a late Derby scheme call up, the only way to be sure is to look at service records for near numbers. The M2 Prefix seems to stop being used around the beginning of 1917 at approximately M2/270480 when just a single M prefix began to be used. 

Thanks for this Gardenerbill I will have a go at looking for near service numbers.

I have also just looked at the LLT page for the Derby scheme.  John was born in March 1898 and would have been 18 years and 7 Months in October 1916. So does that mean that he could not have been in the scheme as he would have had to attested before the 9th June 1916 and therefore would have had an earlier service number (unless he was given his number on mobilisation rather than enlistment)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PRC said:

it seems wasteful to allocate the numbers at the outset or it accounts for some of the gaps in service medal rolls

Yes I've thought long and hard about this and come to a similar conclusion.

The other wastage of course is those men called up to e.g. Grove Park, but fail to reach the grade needed to go onto the learners' course.

I'd have thought the ideal time to issue a number would have been on making it on to the learners' course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding is that the numbers were issued on attestation under the Derby Scheme and at the bottom of the form there is a joined date for when they arrived at Grove Park and these dates can be several months apart for the older Derby men, my Grandfather attested into the infantry in December 1915 (I have his service record) but wasn't called up until June 1916. With regard to John Hoyland, if he was 18 in March 1916 then he missed the Derby scheme and would have been conscripted.  On the subject of wasted numbers not all MT men were drivers, it would be possible to work out how many of the Derby scheme men i.e. the numbers allocated between 15th October 1915 and 1st March 1916, have medal index cards. This would give an indication but wouldn't take into account home service.  

Edited by Gardenerbill
Factual error
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect different parts of the army may have done it differently.

 

I have seen infantry where it is clear the number was allocated only once the Derby man was actually called up yet other times it seems the number was allocated on the completion of the original enlistment form.

 

Craig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 25/12/2018 at 10:20, Gardenerbill said:

 On the subject of wasted numbers not all MT men were drivers, it would be possible to work out how many of the Derby scheme men i.e. the numbers allocated between 15th October 1915 and 1st March 1916, have medal index cards. This would give an indication but wouldn't take into account home service.  

 

That's a big piece of work but for now I can offer up a small proxy. My most recent attempt to profile a man from the ASC who survived the war, had no surviving service\discharge\pension record or pension ledger card in the intial release and had a relatively common name involved looking at a 41 service number batch that ran from M2/177656 to M2/177696. As part of the fact finding I included a check of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site to look for men who might have died on home service only, (none), and Soldiers Died in the Great War in case one turned up as a "formerly ASC M2/1776xx", (none). The Medal Index Cards and the RASC Service Medal Rolls  and Silver War Badge Rolls were all checked.

 

Of the 41, 7 service numbers produced no match at all, (17%). Of those 7 an unknown proportion could be home service only who remained fit enough to serve in the UK for the whole 2 and a half years after they were mobilised, (begging the question why they didn't either get weeded out for infantry or sent overseas), or Silver War Badges were not claimed if they were discharged early or they were indeed transferred to another unit but the linkage to the ASC number was lost along the way or simply the numbers were never used.

 

Of the 34 who could be identified they all served overseas. None had full service records, but 2 had discharge records, 1 had pension records and 3 had Pension Ledger Cards. Added to that a number had such distinctive names that a search of civil records for England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland showed only one likely candidate. For those who could be accounted for in some way as more than just a name and service number then for their pre-service employment at the time of the 1911 Census I had 5 Chauffeurs, 1 Carman, 1 Motorman, 1 Coachbuilders' Foreman plus others where there was a potential that driving might be involved in their work - 1 Furniture Porter, 1 Locksmiths' Engineer, 1 House Furnisher and 1 Paper Mill Warehouseman. To round it off there was 1 Railway Engine Cleaner. Following the group through to the 1939 National Register and the Probate Calendar there were also a considerable number of Taxi-Drivers, Lorry Drivers & Haulage Contractors and at least 1 Garage Owner. These figures have to be taken with a pinch of salt - 17 of the 34 I have nothing meaningful for.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Additional thought :-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Of the 41, 7 service numbers produced no match at all, (17%).

Interesting study Peter,I know this is too small a sample to be significant, but 17% is quite a lot.

I have been looking again at the numbers list I have compiled and the Derby scheme men were attesting at their local recruitment office and then joining months later according to the scheme rules at either Grove Park or Osterley Park. The local recruitment offices could not be allocating the numbers as managing pools of numbers for every office would be a bureaucratic nightmare, they must have been leaving the number blank and it was allocated when they actual turned up at Grove or Osterley Park. Unfortunately I don't have an active FMP or Ancestry subscription at the moment so I can't follow this up at present. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

I have been looking again at the numbers list I have compiled and the Derby scheme men were attesting at their local recruitment office and then joining months later according to the scheme rules at either Grove Park or Osterley Park. The local recruitment offices could not be allocating the numbers as managing pools of numbers for every office would be a bureaucratic nightmare, they must have been leaving the number blank and it was allocated when they actual turned up at Grove or Osterley Park.

 

I've been finding it a lot recently when I've been taking this approach to trying to work out who an individual Derby Scheme man might have been in "real" life. The 17 names I have something for in my most recent study appear to have come from all over England - nothing found to indicate they came from anywhere else. So based on either the 1911 census records, enlistment details or by inference subsequent location marriage or birth of (additional) children I have men from Cheshire, Lancashire, Lincolnshire, South Wales, Somerset, Devon, Hampshire, London, Surrey, Sussex and Kent. They obviously didn't all pop into the same recruitment office, and from subsequent records like 1918/1919 Electoral Registers etc, it's fairly clear they hadn't all suddenly move to the same area between April 1911 (Census) and the last half of 1915, (doors open on the Derby Scheme).

 

So the options as far as I can see are probably

1) Batches of numbers are issued to individual or groups of offices and they use them as and when they identify suitable Derby Scheme volunteers. Lots of scope for numbers not being used or used out of synch.

2) They phone the depot during the individual enlistment process for a number to be issued so that number issue is still controlled centrally.

3) They batch the recruits and ask overnight for a number so while the men are serving their one day before moving to the Army Reserve a number can be issued to them

4) Details are past on to the Central Depot who post out the number.

5) A recruit number is issued, (the Surrey records office seems to show these for Derby Scheme men, but has service numbers for early volunteers and later conscripts).

 

I can see the appeal of issuing a service number early in the process - if part of the appeal of the Scheme is to get men to volunteer by giving them a choice of unit there would be a pyschological benefit in giving them a permament number, plus if they needed to be paid for their one day attendance it would be simpler to set up a wages record. It's more likely they were paid out of petty cash.

 

Perhaps one test might be if a Derby Scheme man failed to respond to the mobilisation notice, what number was used in the Police Gazette et al wanted notices?

 

It's a much wider question so apologies for taking this thread off on a tangent.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, PRC said:

It's a much wider question so apologies for taking this thread off on a tangent.

 

No apology necessary your input is numbers related.

 

During the Derby scheme period there appear to be men who did not join the scheme but reported to the ASC almost immediately; for example DM2/138001 Sjt Harry Salvin attested Birmingham 29/11/1915 joined at Osterley Park 11/12/1915. Then just 2 days later (see post #83) DM2/138132 Pte John Legg attested in the Derby scheme at Weybridge 31/11/1915 joined at Osterley Park 04/02/1916.


This suggests the numbers were allocated at the time of attestation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Over the bank holiday weekend during the free Ancestry period, I took the opportunity to do some investigation of the ASC MT numbers around the introduction of the Derby scheme at the end of 1915, I know I should get out more, anyway here is what I found.


Up to December 1915 the ASC was using B2505 Short Service Attestation form, attestation date and joining date usually just a few days apart.
A new form B2512 Short Service Attestation including box top right for group number was introduced for the Derby scheme.

The first ASC MT service record I found on form B2515 was DM2/138101 Pte William Pritchard, attested 16/12/1915, joined 10/01/1916 
Attestation dates and joining dates on the Derby scheme forms tend to be a month or more apart depending on the group number.
B2505 continue to be used throughout December 1915 and into January 1916 with attestation date and joining dates a few days apart suggesting not Derby scheme.
The first B2513 conscription form I found before I ran out of time was DM2/164737 Pte William Woodhead attested 07/03/1916 joined 09/03/1916, attestation date and joining date back to a few days apart.
However there are higher numbers on the Derby form B2512 for example M2/203069 Pte Albert Walter Saunders attested 21/12/1915 joined 25/08/1916, this suggests the number was allocated on joining rather than on attestation.


Next free weekend I will do some more digging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Dear All,

I would welcome any help in trying to identify my Great-grandfathers unit and to which units it was attached. I cannot find any service record but what I do know is that Private(later Corporal) Sydney Smith ( actually Sidney),Number 57805 RASC enlisted in the ASC in Manchester on 30/04/1912 and was discharged 3the 1/03/1920 having served 4 years/236 days before the colours and 3 years 100 days in the army reserve.

His regiment is marked CMT-9 which is Mechanical Transport Special Reserve and date of embarkation is the 16/09/1914 - he has a Mons Star which confirms this situation.

Who was CMT-9 attached by way of unit/Division ? I am keen to track where he served and try and find more details of in what capacity. He served in Germany in 1919 according to unit photographs.

Any help would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Mike Willis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the forum, unfortunately without a service record it will be very difficult to track your Great Grandfather. CMT/9 is actually his original service number in the Mechanical Transport special reserve so one of the first to join, there is a medal index card for him all you can say for certain is that he went to France in September 1914 and joined a unit with the original BEF. If you know where he lived you might be able to find him on an absent voters list. The parent site 'Long Long Trail' (see link at top of forum webpage) has information on researching a soldier that may be helpful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Manchester absent voters lists are available to be viewed on microfilm in the Central library.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike,

Can I ask you to post everything you know about your great grandfather?

Is the 1914 Star in your possession, or accessible?

If so does it have CMT/9 engraved on it?

Also, how do you know his enlistment and discharge details, and where does the number 57805 come from?

 

Looking at his medal card, I see '5/AP' written after ASC. I'm not sure what that means at the moment.

I agree with GB, looking at the AVL for Manchester is essential.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...