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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

...I am really confused


blmjjr

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Hi all

According to the CWGC website, my great-uncle, John Henry Jeremy J/40493, was lost at sea on 21st October 1918 whilst serving aboard HMS Q10 (previously named HMS Begonia).

However, an earlier thread on this site states that HMS Begonia was lost with all hands in 1917.

I feel I must be missing something...

please help

Jan

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Jan,

Sounds like a typo in the CWGC website. Begonia definitely went missing in September 1917.

Best wishes,

Michael

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Quite possibly there was more than one Begonia. It is a very common occurence, particularly with regard to auxiliary patrol vessels

Try Dittmar and Colledge

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Hello Jan,

Based on my copy of the Admiralty death records (in service) you have opened a can of worms!

The Begonia, aka Q 10, a Sloop, is listed as a ship loss by the Admiralty on 6th October 1917; this was probably the date she was expected back in port. How and when she was lost are obscure, probably a mine.

The Admiralty lists 96 casualties, but your man Jeremy J/40493 is amongst them.

There is no one with the name Jeremy or number J/40493 listed by the Admiralty as dying in 1918.

There was a Drifter named Begonia hired by the Admiralty in March 1915, name changed to Begonia II in October 1915, in service thro' to 1919.

However, it is quite possible that Jeremy was invalided out at some stage and subsequently died in 1918.

Best wishes

David

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Hi Jan

As it looks like he is buried in Cardiff (per CWGC) and his death was registered there with the civil authorities - 4th qtr 1918 - volume 11a page 633 - I guess it can be presumed he died pretty close to there and his body was available for burial

A copy of the death certificate might throw a bit more light on the circumstances

Best Wishes

Sue

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I suspect the answer will lie in his service record, available for download at the National Archives:-

Clickety click

Cardiff seems to have been his place of birth as well as death so there may also be clues in that.

John

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Thank you all for your help...now, if you have a second can you help me pick the bones out of this...

I have got hold of John Henry James service record, thanks John, this states he was discharged on 17th October 1917, from Vivid. He did serve on Q10 but for a very short time almost a year earlier.

I have copies of two documents that confirm he was discharged on this date (form M 169 and and "application form").

So how come he is listed on CWGC as a casualty, his unit being HMS Q10? And his name is on the War Memorial at St Saviours Church in Cardiff (I saw this yesterday)

This stuff is confusing isn't it...or is it me

Jan

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So how come he is listed on CWGC as a casualty, his unit being HMS Q10? And his name is on the War Memorial at St Saviours Church in Cardiff (I saw this yesterday)

Jan

Yes, it's confusing. It can "do yer head in".

OK.....for him to be listed by CWGC after being discharged, his cause of death must be related to his service. That is a "given". Getting the death certificate will tell you what it was.

The unit (i.e. HMS Q10) listed by CWGC will be what was provided by the Admiralty. You now appear to have evidence that it is wrong as he had later service on Vivid. The Forum has arrangements with the Commission to make submissions to them on behalf of members to seek corrections like this. If this is a route you wish to go down, I suggest you PM Terry Denham with the details and seek his advice.

John

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John you are an absolute wonder!!

I really thought I was missing something really simple...which would have made me, well, simple!

I really appreciate your help and patience

Jan

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which would have made me, well, simple!

Nah. We can all miss the obvious - always as well to check.

And remember, on the Forum, there's no such thing as a daft question - only daft answers ( and I could you plenty of them :D )

John

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What are the actual dates of his service on the various places listed? From what you have given so far:

Begonia was his active service posting. In army terms last overseas posting. It is possible this is where his health suffered.

Vivid was the barracks at Devonport and also the naval hospital.

Just like the CWGC shows what active army units men served with it looks like they have given the details of his active service rather than the barracks. Otherwise those dying at home would all be listed as civillians. Another instance is when army personnel transferred to the Labour Corps, their 'fighting' battalion is shown on the CWGC site.

If his records are at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, they might have more.

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Vivid was the barracks at Devonport and also the naval hospital.

Hadnt appreciated that Vivid wasnt a ship.

It could mean the CWGC record is correct, although one regularly comes across army deaths where the unit is given as the "depot battalion" rather than the previous fighting battalion. Similiar to the Begonia/Vivid situation - or would the navy have had different rules to the army about such matters?

John

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The Navy like to confuse people - almost as much as the Army! All naval officers and ratings had to be bourne on a ships books and allocated to a nominal ship.

I take your point over Depot Battalions, but aren't those entries for men who were still serving? John Henry Jeremy died after discharge, so I'm assuming that his family gave the details of his active service.

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but aren't those entries for men who were still serving?

Er, yep.

And I know enough that when I'm in a big hole, I should stop digging.

Bye, bye from me on this thread

J

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