Btt. Deutschland Posted 18 August , 2007 Share Posted 18 August , 2007 Hello, I'm normally busy in other parts of the forum, but as I'm always expanding my ww1-collection, I've come across a marking on a german shellcasing, that absolutely stunned me, because I can't find an explanation for it! Because my main interest is the german kaiserliche marine in flanders, I always look for brass casings wearing the marking of the imperial crown, with an 'M' beneath that crown.. But in the last few months, I found 2 casings (dating from 1909 and 1914) Wearing the crown, and beneath it 'Ke' stamped... Does anyone know what this means, or where it stands for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 18 August , 2007 Share Posted 18 August , 2007 Nolf Equally I am not usually here either ! Logic could say that the Ke is an abbreviation for the the Karlsruhre factory where this shell was made - maybe it is a proof mark with the crown with the Ke to show this,maybe the 11 below that is a particular production area or line within the Ke complex ? By the way,I was in a small French town on Wednesday (it was a public holiday and there was a bric-a-brac sale in a schoolyard) and I saw a small brass hand made oblong box marked Verdun 1917 in a very professional embossed way,and had the name Lucien neatly marked on the lid. On close examination I saw that it had been fabricated from a shell casing. It was only after I had returned home to England that I wish I had bought it ! Best wishes Sotonmate Nolf I also meant to say,what does the M under the crown usually mean ? Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 19 August , 2007 Share Posted 19 August , 2007 I wish you had bought it, too, Soton !!! Nevermind, maybe it'll turn up at Lille in a couple of weeks...!! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 19 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2007 Hello Sotonmate, I must agree with Jim, It would surely have been nice if you bought it! Well, I've had such moments too, but then again, maybe it will turn up again later, in another place,... that's the charm of our hobby, isn't it ? First of all, the M under the crown always means 'kaiserliche marine', there's no doubt about that...(see the attachements) Your explanation could be a solution, I'm not sure, On the other casing (the one of 1909) it states 09 instead of 11 beneath the Ke, but then again, why would only the Karlsruhe factory have such marking, on casings from Polte or other factories, I've never seen such marking... So, the uncertainty still remains... Regards, Wouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 19 August , 2007 Share Posted 19 August , 2007 Nolf Thanks for the answer to my question - sorry I can't give you an answer to your question,but I will keep my eyes open. Have you tried the "In Flanders Field" museum in Ypres,or even the Diggers of Boesinghe website? They may have an answer for you. Best wishes Sotonmate (If I tell you quietly where the shell case box was.............you may still find it there ! Dives-sur-Mer a few miles over the Pegasus Bridge to the east of Caen. Hurry !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zidler Posted 19 August , 2007 Share Posted 19 August , 2007 one of mine also has the M under the crown on it, I got mine in a car boot sale in Belgium last year for 4euro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 19 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2007 Sotonmate, No, I haven't asked the Diggers, or been to the museum lately, to be honest, going to fleamarkets and sales to find some new items, is the only free time I can spare for te moment, because I'm very busy with school lately... Well, From the moment I'm free, I'll make a little trip to Caen and take a look... I don't know when schools in france start again, but if its the same system as belgium, I'll really have to hurry, since elementary schools start again the 3rd of september... I'll keep you posted on my research too, and if I have the time to go there, I'll let you know! Thank you very much, Wouter Elias, I must say, I envy you a lot; It has been about 5 years that I've been looking for Marine-casings, and to be honest, I've only have 3 casings wearing the M, so it's very hard for me to find one; so I must say, You must be a very lucky guy (and to be able to buy it for 4 euros...) Regards, Wouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 19 August , 2007 Share Posted 19 August , 2007 Hello, I'm normally busy in other parts of the forum, but as I'm always expanding my ww1-collection, I've come across a marking on a german shellcasing, that absolutely stunned me, because I can't find an explanation for it! Because my main interest is the german kaiserliche marine in flanders, I always look for brass casings wearing the marking of the imperial crown, with an 'M' beneath that crown.. But in the last few months, I found 2 casings (dating from 1909 and 1914) Wearing the crown, and beneath it 'Ke' stamped... Does anyone know what this means, or where it stands for? Hello, Nolf - Another charactersitic of Kaiser-period German naval shell cases is the use of Roman numerals rather than alphebetical letters to indicate the month of manufacture. For example, if your 1914 case were naval, it would show the March 1914 headstamp date as "III 1914" instead of "MRZ 1914." Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie Posted 24 August , 2007 Share Posted 24 August , 2007 Hello Nolf, the marking "Ke with crown" was used by the munitions factory "Patronenfabrik Karlsruhe" untill the end of 1915 as a quality-control mark of the case. From 1916 onwards it was replaced by "Sp" with a number. I'm not sure what the number means, I think it's the personal number of the man who did the quality check. Regards Arie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 24 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2007 Torrey, thanks for the aditionnal information, it is very welcome! Hello Arie, Thank you for solving the mistery!!!!!! So, it was only Karlsruhe who used that quality control stamp? Because Polte also used the 'Sp' stamp, if I'm not mistaken... Anywho, I'm glad to hear where it stands for! Thank you, Regards, Wouter So sotonmate was getting close with his explanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 25 August , 2007 Share Posted 25 August , 2007 Nolf, The symbol of the 'flaming grenade' at 3 o' clock on the shell base means that this piece of Marine ammunition has been taken over for use by the land army. Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie Posted 25 August , 2007 Share Posted 25 August , 2007 Hello Nolf, those quality control markings were also used by other factories. The "Sp" mark was also used by: - Polte in Magdeburg, - Rheinische Munitionsfabrik (Rh. M.F.) in Düsseldorf, - Algemeine Elektricität Gesellschaft (A.E.G.) in Berlin, - Artillerie Werkstatt Spandau (AWS) in Berlin-Spandau, - Gelsenkirchener Gusstahl Werke (GG or GGW) in Gelsenkirchen, - Geschoss Fabrik Spandau (GFSP) in Berlin-Spandau The mark "Sp255" was only used by Patronenfabrik Karlsruhe, the marks "Sp252", "Sp289" and "Sp406" were used by Polte Magdeburg. As said before the "Sp" mark was used from the end of 1915. The Patronenfabrik Karlsruhe used from 1897 to 1898: AWS 10; 1898 to 1902: Dr 1; 1899 to 1915: crown and Ke; 1907 to 1915: crown and Ke with number; 1915: HL 21 and 1916 to 1918: Sp255. Cnock, the meaning of the "flaming bomb" was unknown to me. Could you tell were you found this information,please? Regards Arie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 28 August , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2007 Hi Cnock, I didn't know that, thank you for the info, very much appreciated! Arie, Thank you very very much for sharing this knowledge, I'm know better informed when I go out hunting for shells O, and to add to your collection of markings; Here's a 50mm shell, from 1892, where it states AWS 20... (Thanks to Cnock) Regards, wouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie Posted 29 August , 2007 Share Posted 29 August , 2007 Hi Nolf, the AWS in this case is the factory Artillerie Werkstatt Spandau and the lotnumber is 20. The little AWS at 7 o'clock is the inspection mark. Regards Arjen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 17 September , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 September , 2007 Hello Arjen, thank you very much for this additional information! regards, Wouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 21 September , 2007 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2007 Cnock, Arjen or anyone else, Do you know where the 15.16..17.. stands on this casing (going from 1 to 4 o'clock) Regards, Wouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arie Posted 26 September , 2007 Share Posted 26 September , 2007 Hello Wouter, it stands for the number of times this case has been reloaded e.g. once in 1915, twice in 1916 etc. (see the little dots/dimples after each year). Regards Arjen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btt. Deutschland Posted 26 September , 2007 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2007 Hello Arjen, thank you very much for this info! guess my knowledge of markings isn't very good so it has been used 5 times or so; well, maybe that's why the detonator is missing... Thank's a lot! Regards Wouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanford B Posted 26 June , 2012 Share Posted 26 June , 2012 I have a shell with "DAMASCUS 1918' on it's side. On the bottom is Februarry 1915 and a 71 over a crown with KE 11 under it. The sides and top are decorated with scrolls and various designs. Any idea what this may have been? Perhaps a torpedo shell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruilooze Posted 27 June , 2012 Share Posted 27 June , 2012 If you could post the dimensions of the shell I am sure one of the resident experts will be able to help you identify it. it sounds like it has been decorated with trench art Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanford B Posted 29 June , 2012 Share Posted 29 June , 2012 The dimensions are : 4.75" diameter, 4.0" high, approximately 14.0" circumfrance. See attached photos. Sanford Bearse snb300@comcast.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruilooze Posted 29 June , 2012 Share Posted 29 June , 2012 Its a nice example of a trench art tobacco jar made from two cut down shell cartridges. I assume that the top bit can be removed? I have a similar item in my collection. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanford B Posted 29 June , 2012 Share Posted 29 June , 2012 Yes, the top can be removed. Is there a market for this? What might it be worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruilooze Posted 30 June , 2012 Share Posted 30 June , 2012 Take a look at fleabay item 300729719507. The ones with islamic decoration seem quite sought after. I have no connection with the item or seller. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanford B Posted 30 June , 2012 Share Posted 30 June , 2012 Hi Dave, I tried item no. 300729719507 on fleabay and no such number was found. Newell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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