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Ryegate

For soldiers killed in action

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ralphjd

Hi Rygate, Dont know if this request is possible via your site, I have a soldier commemorated on our memorial but cannot find any trace of his death anywhere his name ROBERT JONES HOWARTH (or HAWORTH) age 26 when he won the MM missing in action Dec 1917 POW FEB 1918 after that nothing. Regards Ralph.

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Ryegate

RJayDee

Unless Robert Jones Howarth was killed during the war, Find my Past will not hold records.

However, I have looked at the pension records on Ancestry where there are a few Robert Howarths. The only Robert Howarth who was aged 26 when he enlisted is:

Name: Howarth, Robert

Age on enlistment: 26

Residence: 4 Plungington Road, Fulwood

Regiment: 20388

If you can recognise any of the above give me a shout and I will print of the service records for him (I believe there are 5 pages to this record).

I am sure you already know being must more enlightened than me, that the National Archives have lists of POWs that are available online but I guess you have probably already checked there.

I am up against the clock today as I am due to go to Orkney this morning but I will take another look for him on my return and let you know if i find anything else. In the meantime, perhaps you could let me know if any of the above could be applicable to your man.

Regards

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Ryegate

Joan

Details are:

Name: Smyth, George

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Battalion: 2nd Battalion

Birthplace: Shankill, Co Antrim

Enlisted: Belfast

Rank: Rifleman

Number: 9001

Date died: 30 December 1914

How died: Died of wounds

Theatre of War: France & Flanders

If you wish me to search for the death certificate ref. please let me know and I will be happy to do so. As you will no doubt be aware of posting on this string the details on the certificate are limited to the information given above (in other words it will merely say the cause of death was 'died of wounds'.

Certificates cost £11 without the reference but £7 with one.

Forum members

As I have already stated previously, having a death certificate is a personal choice. I happened to want one but others may not see the point to it.

I am also not flying the flag for Find my Past. It has some good records and as far as I am aware they contain a high level of accuracy but I do not wish to encourage anyone to spend 7 quid on a certificate in the hope it will give previously unknown information.

I happen to like to have the certificates. I have birth and marriage certificates and to me, obtaining the death certificate is the final piece in the puzzle. It is a personal choice.

All those requesting information have either received an answer on the Forum or by PM. There are enough responses on the Forum for anyone else looking to know exactly what information they are likely to get. If anyone seeing it, still makes a request then I can only assume the details gives them something they did not have previously. If anyone wants a cert. ref. I can only assume they wish to order the cert.

Regards

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John_Hartley
cannot find any trace of his death anywhere his name ROBERT JONES HOWARTH (or HAWORTH) age 26 when he won the MM missing in action Dec 1917 POW FEB 1918 after that nothing. Regards Ralph.

Ralph

If I've understood your post correctly, Howarth was posted as being missing in December 17 but was then confirmed as a PoW in February 18. Yes?

If so, he's likely to have spent the rest of the war as a PoW and returned home afterwards. His death is, therefore, likely to be a civilian one and you'd need to search the death records from November 1918 until the date the memorial was unveiled. Of course, he may have died as a PoW in which case Ryegate's look-up offer will be helpful.

He may be uncommemorated by CWGC because his cause of death was not related to his service, or that it was after the CWGC cut-off date.

You have information that he won the MM....does that source also mention his unit...it'd be handy for whittling down any list of possibles.

John

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Jon6640
Re:

Benjamin Smith Reg. 740

Checked all Benjamin Smiths. None with this regiment No. although I do note on his records that 'How died' is simply stated as 'Died'. Most are either killed in action or died of wounds. Only found one other that is 'Died' and that was apparently a suicide so maybe the certificate is held in the civilian death records.

A look at the local newspaper archives reveald this:

Soldier Hero’s Funeral

Full military honours were accorded the funeral at Buxton on Friday afternoon of Sapper Benjamin Smith, North Midland R.E. whose death took place at the Devonshire Hospital there on August 16th, from gas poisoning. Sapper Smith’s home was at Walsall-road, Churchbridge, and his mother resides at 25 Low Street, Cheslyn Hay. He was a widower with one child and prior to enlisting last November worked as a miner at the Leacroft Colliery. Detachments from his old regiment, with a firing party, attended the funeral, which was watched by a large concourse of people, and a soldier carried a beautiful wreath sent by his comrades. The mourners were Mrs. Smith (mother), Florence Smith (daughter), Mr. Chas. Smith (brother) and Mrs. Mann (sister). Another brother Private George Smith of the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards was killed in action in France on March 10.

Does anyone have access to the register of deaths?

Jon

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punjab612
Does anyone have access to the register of deaths?

Jon,

This is probably your man in the GRO Deaths Index

1915 Sep Quarter, Smith, Benjamin Registration District: Chapel-le-Frith, Vol. 7b Page 796

Peter

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T8HANTS

Hi Ryegate

Would you be kind enough to look up my Great Uncle Serjeant H. E. Sprack, 30779, Royal Garrison Artillery, 1st/1st London Heavy Battery, killed 13th October 1918.

I am trying to finds out if he died as the result of a traffic accident, rather than being KIA or died of wounds.

Thanks........Gareth

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ralphjd

Ryegate/John. I have checked on Ancestry.co every year from 1918 to 1924 when the memorial was unveiled in the deaths section - no joy. I know he served in the 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers as 42118 Sgt Howarth , his name is in the Lancs Fus History of (I have it in my possession) as being awarded the MM I have his photograph, his address, his wifes name, his mum and dad, where he was married but not where he is buried. He had two brothers and two sisters, one brother ran a butchers shop in Bridge St Milnrow. WHEN DID HE DIE AND WHERE IS HE BURIED ? ITS DRIVING ME BANANAS. Ralph.

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Jon6640
Jon,

This is probably your man in the GRO Deaths Index

1915 Sep Quarter, Smith, Benjamin Registration District: Chapel-le-Frith, Vol. 7b Page 796

Peter

Peter,

Thanks, is my next move to contact the registry office where his death is? IE Chapel le Frith?

Jon

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John_Hartley
Bridge St Milnrow. WHEN DID HE DIE AND WHERE IS HE BURIED ? ITS DRIVING ME BANANAS. Ralph.

Ralph

I take it you've downloaded his Medal Index Card. Does it have anything about date of discharge? If not, then you're going to have to check the actual medal roll at Kew.

I've checked the overseas deaths list on the CD and he ain't on it.

BTW, I presume that you've aware that the 2/5th won't have been his first unit overseas. His service number is a Service Battalion one, not a Territorial.

John

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punjab612
is my next move to contact the registry office where his death is? IE Chapel le Frith?

Jon,

Either that but bear in mind the districts may have changed alterntively and much simpler in my opinion, you could order a certificate on-line. Here's the link

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Peter

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John_Hartley
I am trying to finds out if he died as the result of a traffic accident, rather than being KIA or died of wounds.

Gareth

"Soldiers Died" has him as "died" - usually indicating a non-combat related death. Certainly supports any traffic accident information you have.

John

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joan bourgeois
Joan

Details are:

Name: Smyth, George

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Battalion: 2nd Battalion

Birthplace: Shankill, Co Antrim

Enlisted: Belfast

Rank: Rifleman

Number: 9001

Date died: 30 December 1914

How died: Died of wounds

Theatre of War: France & Flanders

If you wish me to search for the death certificate ref. please let me know and I will be happy to do so. As you will no doubt be aware of posting on this string the details on the certificate are limited to the information given above (in other words it will merely say the cause of death was 'died of wounds'.

Certificates cost £11 without the reference but £7 with one.

Forum members

As I have already stated previously, having a death certificate is a personal choice. I happened to want one but others may not see the point to it.

I am also not flying the flag for Find my Past. It has some good records and as far as I am aware they contain a high level of accuracy but I do not wish to encourage anyone to spend 7 quid on a certificate in the hope it will give previously unknown information.

I happen to like to have the certificates. I have birth and marriage certificates and to me, obtaining the death certificate is the final piece in the puzzle. It is a personal choice.

All those requesting information have either received an answer on the Forum or by PM. There are enough responses on the Forum for anyone else looking to know exactly what information they are likely to get. If anyone seeing it, still makes a request then I can only assume the details gives them something they did not have previously. If anyone wants a cert. ref. I can only assume they wish to order the cert.

Regards

Hello Ryegate,

Thank you for looking up this information for me.

Joan

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Esskay
Great Uncle Serjeant H. E. Sprack, 30779, Royal Garrison Artillery, 1st/1st London Heavy Battery, killed 13th October 1918.

Hi Gareth - with Ryegate off to Orkney I thought I'd let you know what I found on FindmyPast

The SDGW entry gives

Name: SPRACK, Henry Ernest

Regiment, Corps etc.: Royal Garrison Artillery

Battalion etc.:

Last name: Sprack

First name(s): Henry Ernest

Initials: H E

Birthplace: Sandown, I. Of W.

Enlisted: Winchester, Hants

Residence: Bembridge, I. Of W.

Rank: SERGT.

Number: 30799

Date died: 13 October 1918

How died: Died

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

His death cert ref - under Army War Deaths is 1918 A6 186

Cheers

Sue

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stan johnson
I have been meaning to say that anyone seeking a death certificate reference for a soldier killed in action, I would be pleased to look for it on Find my Past.

Regards

Ryegate. I already have the Information from Find my past for the person I am searching...He was killed in action 18 sept 1916 France Flanders..It does not have any info.however in regard to burial, or even if his name is on the Menin Gate. Is there any way of finding out if he has a known grave.??? I may be going to visit the area some time next year.regards Stan.

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John_Hartley

Stan

You'd need to look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. It'll tell you which cemetery he's buried in or, if he has no known grave, which memorial he's commemorated on.

John

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stan johnson
Stan

You'd need to look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. It'll tell you which cemetery he's buried in or, if he has no known grave, which memorial he's commemorated on.

John

Thanks John, Found the Memorial. Its at Ploegsteert.

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ralphjd

John, Regarding my man Robert Jones Howarth, does the following paper write up shed any light re his battalion? " 31-10-1917 Cpl (sic) Howarth joined the forces in February of this year and was sent to France in June " Also can I buy his MIC on the NA site I found his ref WO 372/10 and will it give me any more info on him ? I take it that these cards list medal entitlements and little else ? Ralph.

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Ryegate

Rjaydee

I have taken another look for Robert Jones Howarth. I have searched the records in soldiers killed in the Great War, British deaths overseas and the GRO death records and cannot find any detail for your man.

I also searched the army pension records on Ancestry.

I have medal cards for my relatives. The only details they give is the name, regiment, rank, qualifying date and medal awards.

I can't think where else to look for his details although I would love to find them for you just to save your sanity!

There are about 4 Howarths on the Ancestry pension records (no other name given) so will look at those tonight just in case your man might be hiding amongst those)

regards

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dozza161
I have been meaning to say that anyone seeking a death certificate reference for a soldier killed in action, I would be pleased to look for it on Find my Past.

Regards

Hi Ryegate

That is a very generous offer. If you dont mind I would like info on;

James Gray 35165 northumberland fusiliers killed 02/02/1917 France near arras.

James Gray 21/278 21st tyneside scottishbn killed 05/06/1917 France near arras

Begining to doubt which one is my g grandfather.

much appreciated

Dozza

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John_Hartley
Also can I buy his MIC on the NA site I found his ref WO 372/10 and will it give me any more info on him ?

Ralph

I'm afraid the extract is no help, other than really confirming that he will have gone overseas as one of a draft of replacements rather than an original member of a service battalion.

The MIC may not, in itself, give any other information but it will give the reference for the actual medal rolls (bear in mind the MIC is an Index Card). The actual roll will/should give the battalion - but they can only be accessed at Kew.

Have you tried the Regimental Museum to see if they have any info?

John

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Ryegate

Hi Dozza

One of these James Gray records gives a birthplace so it may help you decide which is your G Grandfather.

Details are:

Name: Gray, James

Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers

Birthplace: Byker, Northumberland

Enlisted: Newcastle upon Tyne

Rank: Private

Number: 21/278

Date died: 05 June 1917

How died: Killed in Action

Theatre of War: France and Flanders

Death cert. ref is 1917 I.30 47

Name: Gray, James

Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers

Battalion: 12th Battalion

Enlisted: Alnwick, Northumberland

Rank: Private

Number: 35165

Date died: 02 April 1917

How died: Killed in Action

Theatre of War: France & Flanders

Death cert ref is 1917 I.30 376

Hope some of the above may help you

Regards

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ralphjd

Ryegate, Ref my soldier Robert Howarth, thanks for all the trouble you are going to, much appreciated, I will persevere and try not to end up in the looney bin. Ralph

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ralphjd

John H. I will give the Bury Museum another try re Robert Howarth, didnt have enough time last time round, keep plodding on. Thanks for your comments re MICs and its looking more like a trip out to Kew is needed. Thanks Ralph.

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greymarehill

202549 Private Thomas Kennett Stephen Wilson died 26 April 1918 age 23 1st Battalion London Regiment

Hi Ryegate

Thank you for looking up James Wilson and Edward Walkling - the supplementary notes were good. Did you get a chance to look up Thomas Wilson? Please let me know.

Thanks

Yvonne

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