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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

5th Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery


SFayers

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Hello Steve,

Congratulations on a very detailed account of this unit's actions. I wonder if you might find mention of my grandfather, Edward John Cummins, in the war diary? I don't know for sure that he was with this unit, but there is a war medal card for an Edward Cummins attached to the 5th siege battery RGA.  I know my grandfather was a gunner in the RGA, stationed at Dover Castle, in 1905. I'm also reliably informed that he was with an artillery unit in WW1. However, he appeared in Cork on the 1911 Irish census and was not identified then as a soldier. The medal card PDF from the NA seems to cover more than one Edward Cummins, so I'm trying to pin down the right one. The most likely candidate seems to have been with the unit from September, 1914. Any light you can throw on the subject would be much appreciated.

Regards

Clive

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Hi Clive,

 

I have a Gunner 6061 Edward Cummins in the nominal roll I've been compiling over the years. He is on the 1914 Star medal roll for 5 Siege Battery, and this is likewise stated on his Medal Index Card. His British War Medal / Victory medal roll entry states 'Base Details', which suggests to me he probably didn't stay with 5 Siege Battery for the duration of the war - possibly being posted back to the RGA Base Depot in Le Havre and then on to the UK for discharge at some point (but that's entirely supposition on my part!). Unfortunately I've found no mention of him in the diary entries, and I've found no service papers for him to give you anything more concrete. If it's the same person, there are Militia Attestation papers to a 2294 Edward Cummins who joined the Dublin City Artillery militia on 10th August 1900, who was subsequently posted to the regular army on 27th September 1900 (on which he would have been given a new number). This militia chap came from St John's, Limerick - could this be your man?

 

The 6061 service number would suggest he joined the regular RGA around 1900 (time-wise being a reasonable match for 2294 Edward Cummins joining the regular army), so by the time of the 1911 census he would have likely been posted to the Reserve after having spent his first years 'serving with the colours'. As a reservist he would have been back in civilian life again (as you've seen in the 1911 census), but subject to mobilization should the need arise. If he'd originally joined the regular RGA for the normal attestation period of 12 years (+ 1 year in a time of war) in 1900, he would have ordinarily been 'time-served' by the time war broke out in 1914. Chances are, to have been recalled in August 1914 whilst retaining his regular number, he had elected to extend his service in the Reserve (what was known as Section D Reserve).

 

Sorry I've nothing more substantial, but if 2294 Edward Cummins and 6061 Edward Cummins are the same man (which is fairly likely I would think), and if your grandfather came from Limerick, then it's quite possible you have the right man.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Steve,

That's extremely helpful! Indeed, my grandfather was originally from the St John's district in Limerick. From what I have gleaned from BMD info the family moved from there to Cork shortly before the 1901 census, on which Edward's profession is given as "soldier". He married in Dover in 1905 while a gunner in the RGA, but by 1911 he and his family were back in Cork. The next waypoint I have is the birth of a child in Kent, in 1919. I have nothing concrete about his circumstances between 1911 and 1919, only anecdotal evidence that he was with an artillery unit and that he was "involved in the battle of the Somme". And, apparently, he was very good with horses.

So, 2294 Edward Cummins is almost certainly my grandfather. The remaining uncertainty is whether 2294 then became 6061. Do any of your records have a date of birth, for example? The medal card PDF I got from the NA has more than one Edward Cummins on it, at least one of whom was in the RFA. Do you think any or all of those other Edward Cumminses can be ruled out, given the info above? I'm guessing you have access to those medal cards, but if not then I'm happy to forward the copy I have here. Thanks so much for your help.

Regards

Clive

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Hi Clive,

 

I'm afraid I have nothing more on 6061 Edward Cummins other than what I mentioned above (I.e. the medal roll entries and Medal Index Card), so nothing unequivocal to directly link him to your grandfather. That said, given your grandfather was a militiaman in the Dublin City Artillery, it would be more likely he would have joined the RGA on posting to the regular army. Though, of course, we don't know this for certain, I find it remarkably coincidental that your grandfather was posted from the militia to the regular army in a time frame for another Edward Cummins to join the regular RGA (I've yet to find evidence of an Edward Cummins joining any other unit of the regular army at this time). On balance, I would say it's likely to be the same chap.

 

If I turn up anything else I will let you know.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Clive,

 

Hopefully this clinches it a bit more:

 

From service papers on Find My Past I have found a Gunner 6060 William Alexander Gibson, from Carrickfergus, who attested for the Royal Garrison Artillery on 20th September 1900. Beyond reasonable doubt this puts 6061 Edward Cummins as joining the RGA at the time your grandfather was posted from the militia. For me, this would be far too coincidental for it to be two different people.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Finally, I've just found the papers for Gunner 6062 John McCartney on FMP, and guess what? He attested in Londonderry on 27th September 1900! :-)

 

Funnily enough, McCartney was discharged as time-served 26th September 1912, only to re-enlist in the Special Reserve on 19th August 1914. Re-enlisting in the Special Reserve meant he was given a new number (SR-458). I still suspect 6061 Edward Cummins elected to remain in the reserve in September 1912, and thus retained his original number on mobilization in August 1914.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

 

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Hi Steve,

Great stuff! I see that this detective work can become quite addictive - and satisfying. Thanks once again for your efforts. If I find out anything else I'll let you know.

All the best

Clive

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You're welcome Clive - best of luck!

 

As a matter of interest, do you have a contemporary photograph of your grandfather you'd like to share? It's always nice to put a face to a name!

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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  • 2 years later...

Hi Steve,

 

I wonder if you would be so kind as to check the diaries for any mention of my Grandfather Michael Reilly. I have only just discovered that he was a Gunner in the 5th Siege Battery of the RGA. He signed up in 1903 and served 7 years in the Yemen. After 4 years on the Reserve, he was called up on the outbreak of the Great War. He went to France in September 1914 and was stationed there for the entire war until he was demobilized in early 1919. His service no was 15179. He came from Co. Cavan in Ireland.

 

Any information you can give me would be gratefully appreciated. I also have a photo of him in his uniform if you would like a copy.

 

Regards,

 

Aidan Reilly

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Hi Aidan,

Yes, it appears from his service papers that he served with 5 Siege Battery from its formation in August 1914 at Fort Efford in Plymouth until 5th November 1918.

 

I'm afraid Michael isn't mentioned in the war diary though. Accepting for any periods of absence (leave, sickness, etc.), it would be reasonable to assume he would have been present for all the major actions 5 Siege Battery was involved in.

 

If you're able to share his photo I'd be very pleased to see it.

 

Kind regards

 

Steve

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It is disappointing that he is not mentioned but thank you very much Steve for checking the war diary. I have attached a photo of Michael in uniform.

 

Regards,

 

Aidan

Gunner Michael Reilly.jpg

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Thanks for sharing Aidan, that's a superb photo!

 

Yes, I'm afraid the war diary tends to only mention the names of other ranks when they have been wounded or killed in action, or if they've been awarded for gallantry.

 

Incidentally, if you haven't already done so, if you look through the first page of this topic I've posted a synopsis of the 'doings' of 5 Siege Battery during the war by year. These will at least give you some idea where Michael was and the actions he would have been involved in.

 

All the best

 

Steve

Edited by SFayers
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  • 1 month later...

Hi,

not sure if this forum is still active but was wondering whether you could find any information on a relative of mine from the 5th siege battery. His name was Russell Lund and his service number was 15280. I am not sure if this information is useful in any way but if so any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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1 hour ago, Matteo said:

Russell Lund and his service number was 15280.

Welcome to the Forum Matteo. Whilst waiting for a reply from Steve (and yes this thread is still active) did you know that there is a surviving Service Files for him (2 3 0r 4 versions), available through FindmyPast or Ancestry ?

 

A prewar Regular, first enlisted 1903 (having previously been in the Militia), he was transferred to the Reserve then Mobilised at the outbreak of war 1914.He appears to have gone overseas with 5 SB on 25/9/14 and then posted to the RGA 2 Depot on 22/3/16 before being discharged (completion of Service)

 

charlie

Edited by charlie962
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Hi Matteo,

 

As Charlie has correctly mentioned, Russell Lund's service papers can be found on either Findmypast or Ancestry.

 

Just a few bits to add to Charlie's notes (incidently, all of this can be found in Russell's service papers). I have him being born in Stranton, Durham and attesting for the regular army RGA from the Militia at Newcastle on 20th March 1903.

 

He was remobilized from the Reserve at the beginning of the war, being posted to 107 (Siege) Company RGA at Fort Efford in Plymouth on 5th August. At the end of August 107 (S) Coy formed 5 and 6 Siege Battery RGA; it was with 5 S Battery that Russell served until 5th March 1916. He was discharged as time served on 22nd March 1916 (that's 12 years service plus one year for times of war).

 

He doesn't receive any mention in the war diary though I'm afraid.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Dear Steve,

 

May I add 32387 (later 1405164) Sgt Fernleigh Percival Launder MM (1895-1961), a Plymouth boy, to your 5 Siege Battery roll. He joined as a boy soldier in 1910, qualifying as a company signaller and trumpeter in 1913, and went overseas with the battery in September 1914. He had been promoted bombardier when gazetted for the MM (LG Supplement 23 August 1916) and returned to the UK on 24 October 1916, very possibly wounded as he qualified for one wound stripe. He went back to the Western Front on 25 April 1917, having qualified as a 1st Class Signaller in January, but I do not know what unit he was then posted to until again returning to the UK on 1 October 1918. He went on to serve in the North Russia Relief Force, possibly with the Royal Engineers, from May-September 1919; in the Military Foot Police for 14 months in 1921/22, some/all of it in Ireland, and as a member of the Anglo-French occupation force in Constantinople in 1922/23. He was finally discharged in December 1928 having added a long service medal, named to him as a sergeant RA, to his MM and 1914 Star trio.

 

I should be most grateful if you were able to see whether he gets a mention in the Battery's war diary during the period March-July 1916 and whether the Battery suffered any wounded casualties in October that year prior to his probable evacuation to the UK.

 

Best regards

 

Mark

Edited by Great Uncle Ted
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Hi Mark,

 

Many thanks for posting. Yes, I have Sergeant Launder. I'll need to check the diary entries and get back to you, but he'll almost certainly receive an entry for his Military Medal.

 

You're correct with regard his wounding. He was wounded during the evening of 20th October 1916 when the battery position (then outside Collincamps) came under 5.9" shell fire; a couple of his comrades died.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Hi Mark,

 

This verbatim from the war diary for 26th July 1916:

 

Honours & Rewards:

26th - The undermentioned NCO was awarded the Military Medal: No. 32387 Bombardier F. P. Launder 5th Siege Battery RGA. XI Corps R. O. No. 422d / 26th July 1916.

 

The reference to XI Corps in regard to his award would almost certainly suggest it was awarded for gallantry during the attack by 5th Australian and 61st Divisions at Fromelles. 5 Siege Battery was briefly attached to XI Corps during the operations at Fromelles between 14th - 22nd July 1916.

 

As I mentioned previously, 5 Siege Battery was in position at Collincamps in October 1916, from where it was employed in bombarding German positions in the north part of the Somme battlefield. The following in italics is verbatim from the war diary for 20th October:

 

20th - Registered our new lane. Battery fired 83 rounds at point K35c49 (front line and communication trench off Serre Road, SW of Serre). In the evening the battery position was shelled with 5.9" and the battery suffered the following casualties:

Killed: Gunner Jackman.

Died of wounds: Gunner Wright.

Wounded: Corporal Churn (Churm), Acting Corporal Launder, Acting Bombardier Tufnell, Gunner Curling, Gunner Langridge, Gunner Howarth. The last named rejoined battery the same day.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

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That is really very kind Steve, I am most appreciative of your help. I have attached a studio photo of him, taken by F Futcher & Son of Salisbury (so presumably whilst he was serving at Larkhill) sometime after he had received his war medals but before he qualified for his LSGC medal.

 

Best regards

 

Mark1309734700_LaunderFPSgt.jpg.1249766117fe146effbdcd3807b4750f.jpg

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That's a superb photo Mark - thanks ever so much for sharing. It's always great to be able to put a face to a name!

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Steve,

 

Someone new to add to the story of the Battery. Gunner 40559 Thomas Rogers from Woolwich. A labourer, he enlisted on 14th February 1914 aged 20 years 203 days. Awarded the 1914 Star, BWM and VM, he transferred into the Military Foot Police No P18003 on 27th August 1919. He was then allocated the new No 7682374. He was discharged under Para 484 (vii) at Aldershot on 13th February 1926.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

Edited by Provost
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Many thanks for the information Richard. I do have him in my list from the 1914 Star medal roll, but I didn't have his first name until now!

 

I have Thomas as being admitted to 11 Casualty Clearing Station and transferred to 22 Ambulance Train on 7th April 1917. He doesn't receive a mention in the war diary at this time, so I suspect this may have been related to illness rather than him being wounded in action. I'm guessing you must have access to his service papers from the MoD - does this tie in with any information you have?

 

Edit: Oedema of left eye apparently! (From surviving register documents for 11 CCS, National Archive reference MH 106/465.)

 

May I ask, is Thomas a relative of yours?

 

All the best

 

Steve

Edited by SFayers
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Steve,

 

The info came from his entry in the CMP Army Book 358. He and Launder are the only 5 Siege Battery men I have with additional service in the Military Police - although there may well be more whom I have simply listed as RGA.

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

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Thanks Richard,

 

For former 5 Siege Battery men I also have:

 

Gunner 16833 Michael Carty who subsequently served as P/5136 in the MFP.

Gunner 20496 T Parkes (I don't have a first name for him), served as P/5138 in the MFP.

Driver 153817 Percy Hubert Gardner, served as P/19003 in the MMP in 1919.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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  • 4 months later...

Hi, My great great uncle gunner Hugh Fraser (161253) was in the 5th siege battery in the royal garrison artillery. Does anyone know of any information about him. I know he was buried in houchin, as i have visited his grave in 2016. 
 

I have enjoyed reading the diaries above.
 

Thanks 

Andrew 

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