"Cold Mountain"

[Tim Birch]

I went with my wife to see Cold Mountain last night. In it there is very graphic sequence of a mine detonating under the Confederate Army trenches. Prior to the detonation it showed the Union Sappers digging and shoring up the gallery and rolling dozens of barrells of explosives into position.

The mine sequence seemed very similar to photographs I have seen of mining under the Western Front. What I thought was very well portrayed, was the way the earth suddenly cracked into fissures and heaved up, literally under the feet of the Confederate soldiers, before the noise, flames and smoke broke through.

Tim

[Terry_Reeves]

Tim

I havn't seen the film, but it sounds as though they have got it right about right. Be it tunnelling or quarrying, the shockwave created by the detonation opens up fissures. As the shock wave reaches the outer-face, it rebounds, enlarging the fissures and allowing the gases created to escape and create the "heave".

Terry Reeves

[BottsGreys]

Please permit me a little non-GW trivia:

The mine consisted of a 510 foot tunnel ending with a lateral gallery loaded with 4 tons of powder. It was constructed by members of the 48th Pennsylvania Infantry, which was raised in the Schuylkill County coal-mining region, and consisted of many men of Irish and English extraction. Fully a fourth of its 400 men present for duty at the time were actually coal miners. The mine blast killed approxi-mately 280 Confeds. outright. The resulting crater was 30 ft deep, 70 ft wide, 250 ft long and the Confed. lines were cleared for 200 yrds. on either side. However, most of the poorly-led attacking Union troops stormed into the hole, instead of going around it. The Battle of the Crater, 30 July, 1864, cost the Yanks approximately 4000 casualties out of 15,000 engaged, while achieving no gains.

Chris

[Tim Birch]

Thanks Chris

So the film was quite accurate in its portrayal of the Confederate massacre of the Union soldiers in the crater?

It's interesting how during the Great War there was a scramble to gain control of a crater RIM after the blowing of a mine rather than the crater itself.

Tim

[BottsGreys]

Tim:

Based on the accounts I have read, I would say that the brutality of the Confederates counterattack was accurate, particularly in relation to the Yankees inability to defend themselves while huddled in the crater. However, I only saw one token black Union soldier (U.S. Colored Troops), when actually a whole divison participated in the attack, and they suffered a third of the casualties.

Chris

[Guest sbecker]

Mate,

I have not seen the movie but read somrthing of the history of this battle.

There has been much about what the Rebs did to the Black troops during the action and there failure to take many prisoners.

Can I add that the rebs had been under fire for sometime before this action and had not got any opertunity to fight back and with the mine expolision and the many rebs casulties and with the Black troops not wanting to fall into reb hands because of the so called order to kill or put back into slavery all coloured troops captured lead there to be a bitter fight in the cratter.

It was a hard contest between and out number reb force and a floundering but gallent union army bent on a break throught at this piont.

One could say the fate of the south depended on there holding this line against all odds and did there duty to the full.

Would the same comments have been made if all the union troops were white and not coloured?

S.B

[AndyHollinger]

I believe, but am not sure, this was the swan-song of our buddy Burnside who bungled everything badly.

Petersburg was a tenuous affair, every day. The ANV held the line knowing any break, any ... would lead to defeat and their quest for independence denied. Yet, they also knew, or at least the officers did, that only the election of Democrats in the north or devine intervention would save them.

The ferocity at the crater is perhaps better described as a chance to fight the people they saw as their ultimate victors as well as well fed, punishing foes ... and, of course, many were black.

Afterwards, Grant went back to the tried and true... sit, bombard, get the strength and will to go to his left another time and hope Lee wouldn't thwart him ... and do it again ... which is what he did and ultimately won.

[paul guthrie]

Andy there is a Burnside Kentucky named after Ambrose Burnside in Pulaski County. Did he have any connection with the town? I do not know of any, thanks.

[AndyHollinger]

Burnside of the Bridge Fame and the sponsor of Fredericksburg battle plan, miraculously lived on as a Corp commander in the Army of the Potomic ... he was considered incompetant but kept for various political reasons. That's about all I know about him - any town in Kentucky named after him would be an interesting historical dig ... my thinking either he gave a lot of money, or he had a relative running the bank ... OR it was founded by the post war Republicans and ran out of generals ...

Kentucky never quite left the union, remember. It also may have been a Republican slap to someone in the society ... not many of these survived, though. It's like "Grant Street" is usually an ally somewhere in a bad neighborhood during the post war Democrat era ...

Just thoughts.

[Neil Burns]

During the initial planning of the Crater operation the assault troops were supposed to be Black. due to the untried nature of the operation the assaulting unit was changed toa white unit for fear of the political repercussions if the Black troops suffered severe casualties. The problem was the Black troops had been trained to hold the rim of the crater and attack outwards, the White troops were not really properly trained for the assault so, quite naturally they were milling around the carnage in the Crater when the Confederates counter attacked. The Black troops played a supporting role but I don't think they were a full division nor did they suffer a third of the casualties. if I recall the immediate Union commander (Not Burnside) was cashiered for being found in the rear, quite drunk, this was another reason for the confusion amongst the Union attackers.

The Crater is still there at St. Petersburgh Military Park and well worth a visit.

Take care,

Neil

[paul guthrie]

Andy Pulaski County is and has been hard core republican but why they picked him is beyond me, web sites are no help.

[BottsGreys]

Actually, Ferrero's 9th Corps Division, which consisted of 9 regiments of U.S.C.T. in 2 brigades was heavily involved in the attack. Although the last division to attack, it was badly mauled. It was ordered by Burnside to "advance at all hazards" past the 3 white divisions trapped at the crater. Most of its men bypassed the hole, but saw heavy fighting in the Confederate trenches on either side and around the rim. Two of the black regiments actually entered the crater, where they got caught with the white units which preceeded them and were decimated. Of the 4500 black troops in the battle, approximately 1327 were casualties.

Chris

[Neil Burns]

Chris,

My apologies your are correct Ferraro's Division was thrown in late in the affair. One of these days I'll stop going by memory and get off my backside and check these things out first!

Take care,

Neil

[BottsGreys]

Neil:

I know exactly what you mean, my friend. Luckily, I have a pretty decent library to fall back on.

Best regards,

Chris

[John_Hartley]

Chris/Neil

I visited the crater on my Grand Tour about 5 years ago. I seem to recall reading that the regimental commander (?) was drunk and did not "go in" with his men. Neil mentions the same thing - but I've never been able to find confirmation in my books. Is it true?

John

[Max]

Andy there is a Burnside Kentucky named after Ambrose Burnside in Pulaski County. Did he have any connection with the town? I do not know of any, thanks.

Paul,

I found the following here: http://www.oriscus.com/khs/countysearch.asp?county=Pulaski

Burnside:- First named Point Isabel. Settled about 1800 by pioneers from the Carolinas and Virginia. During the Civil War the Union army, in 1863, set up a troop rendezvous and supply base here as a prelude to East Tennessee campaign of Gen. Ambrose E. Burnside. The area became known as Camp Burnside in official dispatches and the name Burnside was retained after war.

Andy R

[BottsGreys]

John:

You are thinking of BG James Ledlie, commander of a white division in the 9th Corps. Ledlie commanded the weakest division, and he was the weakest of the Corps divisional commanders--naturally, as things went that Corps, his division led the assault. During the attack, when his men were trapped in and around the Crater and desperately needed leadership, he was in a bombproof in the rear plying himself with rum borrowed from a surgeon.

Chris

[John_Hartley]

Chris

Yep. That's me man. Thanks.

John

[182 CEF]

Burnside had this one right!! He commited the strongest Div to do the job, he trained them and had everything in line. Grant and Meade were worried about Linclons up-coming election and the thought that the Federals may be usings Black Troops as foder. The result was a last minuite change by higher command that lead to the weaker " used up" white Divs being sent in first with no prior training. These Troops got screwed up due to lack of knowledge and the damage dome at the Crater, By the time the Black Div went in the Confederates were starting to regroup. The Federal Black Troops were heard cruing " No Quater" and they recieved much the same. When they were driven back to the Crater, and the White Federal Troops relized the Battle was lost, the Whitbe Ferderal Troops started killing the Black Federal Troops. This has been stated in several Federal and Confederate accounts of this Battle. Many Black Federals were taken alive by the Confederates and lived.

I have studied this Battle for 20 years and have help the NPS on a few occasions concerning the Petersburg Campange.

I know of NO Federal Mines being laid under Confederate lines before this time.

Man I hate most American War Movies!! ( no insult ment to our American Pals)

Dean Owen

Whitby Ontario