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Remembered Today:

NCO Pilots/Observers in the RFC/RAF


Desdichado

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In WWII, the RAF had many NCO pilots but did the RFC and early RAF have them? From what I've read - and I confess, it hasn't been too much - British and Commonwealth pilots all seem to have held the King's Commission. The German Air Service had NCO pilots as did, I believe, the French. I'm not sure about the Americans although I seem to recall that some US volunteers in the French air force were NCOs. Can somebody set me straight on this please?

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The Germans originally took the view that the important person in a two seater was the observer (before he had to operate a machine gun and could devote all his time to observing) and the pilot was just a sort of airborne chauffeur - as a result it was not uncommon to find that the observer was a commissioned officer and the pilot an NCO. In some of the German twin engined bombers the commander was the navigator and not the pilot. In the RFC pre war many of the pilots had had to finance their own flying training so there was a sort of automatic bias to pllots being reasonably well off and "officer class" and this set the pattern, however I have heard of RFC NCO pilots. The one 'air force' that was consistent in the belief, in both World Wars, that pilots had to be commissioned officers was the American. The few American NCO pilots around were from the French via the Foreign Legion (technically only a French citizen could be a commissioned officer in the Legion at that time).

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Despite its title, Observers and Navigators and other non-pilot aircrew in the RFC, RNAS and RAF by Wing Commander C.G. Jefford has some information on the subject. There were some NCO pilots but relatively few, never totalling more than 3% of RFC pilots on the Western Front. In February 1916, there were just over 30 NCO pilots but only 3 were serving with operational squadrons in France. In 1917, there were 27 with operational squadrons on the Western Front in March, 24 in May & 28 in August. At the latter date, there were 970 officer pilots, versus an establishment of 987. Jefford quotes Major K.R. Park, then CO of 48 squadron & later commander of 11 Group in the Battle of Britain, as arguing that if a man was 'of the right type and good enough to be a fighting pilot in a fighting unit, he should be commissioned.'

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Thanks for the help. It's a pity that both Park and Dowding - who was also a combat flyer in WWI, I believe - were treated so poorly after the Battle of Britain. Park's falling out with Leigh-Mallory still rankled with him many years after the war. As for his egalitarian approach to granting commissions, I suspect that might have some something to do with him being a New Zealander and therefore a bit more liberal thinking than others.

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William McCudden was a pre war NCO pilot, his brother James was an NCO observer, then pilot, then commissioned. Thomas Mottershead was also an NCO pilot. As far as I know there weren't any RNAS NCO pilots.

In WWI most NCO didn't even have had the vote; it was not a very egalitarian time.

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As I mentioned in an earlier post, the French were far more likely to have all NCO crews than the British or the Germans. The first ever aerial victory, 5th September 1914, was by Sergent Frantz and Sapeur Quenault in a Voisin. This combination was not unusual.

In the early part of WW2, the Germans still had the observer as aircraft commander in bombers. Very occassionally this occured in the RAF, and still does.

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In WWI most NCO didn't even have had the vote; it was not a very egalitarian time.

Could you qualify this ? In Britain Male universal sufferage was already established.

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Perhaps this will assist:

From http://www.britainusa.com/

What is the history of the Right to Vote in Britain?

Frequently Asked Questions

In 1800, the right to vote was based on wealth and gender (male). Less that 3 adults out of every 100 could vote. Since the, there have been some significant changes to the voting regulations:

1832 Reform Act. Extended the right to vote to certain leaseholders and householders. 5 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1867 Second Reform Act. Further extension of the voting regulations in counties and boroughs. 13 adults out of every 100 could vote, but still based on wealth.

1872 Secret Ballot Act. Introduced voting by secret ballot.

1884 Representation of the People Act. Any male occupying land or property with an annual rateable value of £10 could vote. 24 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1918 Representation of the People Act. All males over the age of 21 were given the vote. Women over 30 got the vote. Women could sit in the House of Commons as MPs. 75 adults out of every 100 could vote.

Doug

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Perhaps this will assist:

1884 Representation of the People Act. Any male occupying land or property with an annual rateable value of £10 could vote. 24 adults out of every 100 could vote.

Doug

This is slightly misleading. given that the proportion of men to women was about equal this meant that in 1884 about 24 MALE adults out of 50 could vote. As the rateable value qualification of property occupied (not owned) was never adjusted to reflect inflation and a rise in property values by 1914 a much higher proportion was able to vote and a majority of adult males would have the vote (which is why the absent voters lists are a useful tool). Certainly its likely that most NCOs were voters.

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This is slightly misleading. given that the proportion of men to women was about equal this meant that in 1884 about 24 MALE adults out of 50 could vote. As the rateable value qualification of property occupied (not owned) was never adjusted to reflect inflation and a rise in property values by 1914 a much higher proportion was able to vote and a majority of adult males would have the vote (which is why the absent voters lists are a useful tool). Certainly its likely that most NCOs were voters.

Certainly correct.

I guess it all gets down to whether the majority of WWI NCOs were below the age of 21 - something I am not aware of.

Doug

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There was one exception to the age limits imposed by parliament. The 1918 Representation of the People Act provided that 19-year-old males could vote as long as they had been on active service.

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Amongst the list of British aces (more than 5 victories) we find:

Sergeant F. Johnson DCM (9 victories)

Corporal A Beebee (7 victories as an observer gunner)

Sergeant E J Elton DCM MM (6 victories)

Sergeant Mechanic J Grant DFM (6 victories as an observer/gunner)

Gun-Layer W Jones (5 victories as an observer/ gunner)

Sergeant E C Hunt (5 victories)

Sergeant T F Stevenson DCM (5 victories)

Which given that there were many more pilots and observers who didn't gain ace status than those that did there must have been a reasonable no of flying NCOs in the RFC and RNAS (I think gun layer was a naval rank).

Why some are decorated and others not may simply be due to some being killed before medals could be awarded.

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Just to add perspective here is the OR aces list for France, Italy and Belgium (there were no OR aces in the Us or Russian services). Although overall the French had many fewer aces than the RFC/RNAS/RAF the proportion of OR to commissioned aces was far higher and in the Italian service the proportion was about 55:50. Although the Belgians had only one OR ace he was the 2nd highest scoring Belgian pilot. There may be many reasons for the differences (for example possibly successful pilots got promoted to commissioned rank more easily n the British service and therefore do not appear in the lists as OR)

Other ranks aces

French

Adjutant A Berthelot (11 victories)

Adjutant M Lenoir (11 victories)

Adjutant R Montrion (11 victories)

Adjutant M Bizot (10 victories)

Adjutant A Chanat (10 victories)

Adjutant M Gasser (10 victories)

Adjutant C Mace (10 victories)

Adjutant J Pezon (10 victories)

Adjutant G Douchet (9 victories)

Adjutant F Chauvannes (8 victories)

Adjutant Chef A Laplasse (8 victories)

Adjutant E Pillon (8 victories)

Sergent P J Sauvage (8 victories)

Marchal des Logis J Moissinac (7 victories)

Adjutant Chef H A Peronneau (7 victories)

Sergent P Santelle (7 victories)

Adjutant V Sayaret (7 victories)

Adjutant M G Vitalis (7 victories)

Sergent (Dr.) Camplan (6 victories)

Sergent A D d’Aische (6 victories)

Adjutant P Delage (6 victories)

Sergent A Dubonnet (6 victories)

Adjutant P de C de Pralines (6 victories)

Adjutant V F A Regnier (6 victories)

Marchal des Logis A Roussaux (6 victories)

Sergent C Soulier (6 victories)

Adjutant M R Bloch (5 victories)

Adjutant A Buisson (5 victories)

Adjutant Calliau (5 victories)

Sdjutant A l F D Degennes (5 victories)

Sergent J Guiguet (5 victories)

Adjutant Hamot (5 victories)

Sergent M Hauss (5 victories)

Adjutant M Henriot (5 victories)

Adjutant G Leinhart (5 victories)

Soldat L H Martin (5 victories)

Adjutant Maudin (5 victories)

Adjutant A Petit-Delchet (5 victories)

Adjutant M Robert (5 victories)

Adjutant M Roussel (5 victories)

Adjutant P M Violet (5 victories)

Italian

Sergente M Cerutti (17 victories)

Sergente A Reali (11 victories)

Sergente G Nicelli (8 victories)

Sergente M G Fornagiari (7 victories)

Sergente M C Renella (7 victories)

Sergente A Bocchese (6 victories)

Sergente A Imolesi (6 victories)

Sergente C Magistrini (6 victories)

Sergente G Nardini (6 victories)

Sergente C Rizzotto (6 victories)

Sergente M Stoppani (6 victories)

Sergente R Ticconi (6 victories)

Sergenta A Chiri (5 victories)

Belgian

Adjutant A de Meulemeester (11victories)

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As the original selection criterea for flying was can you ride a horse and shoot then it was quite obvious who would end up flying, but with the carnage in the air and on the ground it is only natural that ORs would eventually get an oppertunity to fly. It would be interesting to find out when the first NCO pilot was posted to operational flying.

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B)-->

QUOTE(Rob B @ Aug 1 2007, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As the original selection criterea for flying was can you ride a horse and shoot then it was quite obvious who would end up flying, but with the carnage in the air and on the ground it is only natural that ORs would eventually get an oppertunity to fly. It would be interesting to find out when the first NCO pilot was posted to operational flying.

Another of those semi myths. The original criteria was can you afford to pay for private flying lessons? many early RFC and RNAS officers who had some mechanical interests ( a number came from the Royal Engineers or were early motoring enthusiats) earned their licences privately before joining the RFC. Notable examples were Albert Ball and Philip Fullard (44 & 46 victories respectively). This was not a route readily avaiable to most ORs whose route to flying was usually through being a sergeant mechanic serving as an observer and gaining combat experience in this role. Both McCudden and Taffy Jones epitomise this route.flying in this role in 1915 ( contrary to some earlier statement McCudden was not a pre war pilot having his first unoffical piloting experience on a Moran Parasol in 1915). McCudden was propmoted Flight Sergeant in Jan 1916. He was commissioned in Jan 1917 by which time he had shot down his first aircraft as a pilot and added the MM to the Croix de Guerre. A number of NCOs were commissioned on being transfered to the RFC for flying training (once a proper training regime was in place. As the war progressed it seems to have become increasingly the practice for being accepted for pilot training in the British service to equate being commissioned. It is possible to overste the class distinction business.

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As the war progressed it seems to have become increasingly the practice for being accepted for pilot training in the British service to equate being commissioned. It is possible to overste the class distinction business.

Just one example: WE Johns, later the creator of Biggles, from a lower-middle class background, spent most of the war with the Norfolk Yeomanry and then the Machine Gun Corps, never rose higher than Lance-Corporal, but when he was accepted by the RFC in late 1917 he was immediately promoted to 2nd Lieut. I'm not saying there was anything wrong in this; presumably they would have discerned sufficient physical and character strengths to justify this. After all, given that it would cost money in extra wage bills, a commission could be said to be recognition of the value of aircrew volunteers as well as being a recruitment inducement. In WW2, his equivalent may well have stayed a Sgt Pilot.

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:lol: Hi Centurian glad you said semi myth, so not a total myth then and when my Grandfather joined the RNAS in 1915 he had no private license but he could shoot and ride to hounds!

Rob

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I can recall reading a story about Hermann Goering who, after he became C/O of Manfred von Richthofen's former squadron, forbade his pilots to fly lone sorties over the lines. Not long afterwards, several Spads were spotted near the aerodrome and a German Feldwebel took off in his DVII and shot down either one or two of them. When he landed, Goering had a fit and grounded him. At later reunions during the Nazi period, the pilot (I think his christian name was Willie) was feted as the man who defied Goering.

I can't provide a source for this tale as it has been many years since I read it but I'm sure somebody on here knows.

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contrary to some earlier statement McCudden was not a pre war pilot

Number 61 Sjt William Thomas James McCudden WAS a pre war pilot, as stated. He was posted to France in August 1914 with 3 Squadron, initially due to having equipped another squadron with some of their planes 3 Sqn didn't have a full compliment so William McCudden went to france in charge of land transport. More planes were shipped and it was probable that he flew as a pilot, thus being one of the first NCO pilots operational.

His brother, 892 James Thomas Byford McCudden, also went out with 3 Sqn, as an Air Mechanic 1 (as this thread is about observers etc I left that rank and stage of his career out). I did not state that he was an observer, pilot or commissioned pre-war, just that he achieved those distinctions amongst his others.

49535 John Anthony McCudden was also an NCO pilot, later in the war.

See this thread for more details about the McCudden family:

 

 

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Sorry but he wasn't a pilot then but a First Class Air Mechanic (promoted Corporal Nov 20th 1914 and Sergeant on April 1st 1915) servicing the machines of no 3 sqn. He flew as an observer in 1915 and was given unofficial lessons by some of the pilots on a Morane Sauliner Parasol from August 1915. His first operational flight as a pilot was on July 10th 1916 in an FE2d.

McCudden joined the Military Wing of the RFC in 1913 transfering from the RE

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Sorry but WILLIAM McCudden became a pilot in August 1912, having previously been in the balloon section RE. He went to France in 'b' flight 3 Sqn. According to Christopher Cole's book McCudden VC WILLIAM was the 4th NCO pilot in the RFC. The second died within weeks of getting his royal aero club certificate. Frank Ridd and William Victor Strugnell, the other 2, both have Medal Index Cards so probably also flew as NCO pilots in the early days of the war.

JAMES McCudden as stated in my earlier post "also went out with 3 Sqn, as an Air Mechanic 1" in 'c' flight in August 1914.

Possibly you are ignorant of the fact that there was more than one flying McCudden.

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