stiletto_33853 Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Last weekend we visited the important German position of Bayernwald to find that in quite a few places the trenches were caving in and badly in need of some TLC. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 However, this seemed to be the state of some of the trenches in more than one area. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 17 July , 2007 Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Some work appeared to be taking place on these trenches in April, Andy. I wonder if the recent weather has set them back somewhat. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Hi Dave, Could well be, there was no sign of any work being carried out last weekend. Lets just hope that it is the recent wet weather and that some work is done to correct this before it gets too bad. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Mine shaft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2007 Bayernwald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 Well, it still beats this view... (shot late 90's at the same location) Although this sad state did have it's own charm. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dah Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 Sad to see the state of disrepair. Your 2nd picture is quite worrying - and gives a reminder from a WW1 (and present day) perspective that trenches need regular maintenance. Is there a Bayernwald equivalent to the the 'Friends of Lochnagar', i.e. a group of like-minded people who are willing to pitch in to regularly inspect/preserve such a site? I don't get over very often, but I'd be willing to lend support It would be a great shame if school parties (and other tour groups) started to avoid Bayernwald on safety grounds. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 I cannot really understand why there is a need to `restore` sites such as this. I think we may have seen the best of these places when they were not `improved` etc. The problem is that constant maintenance will be required in perpetuity and I think it would be good for people to consider this and other points when deciding to undertake such work. Must admit I appreciated it more like the photo (2001) Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 seadog, With you all the way. Take the trenches on top of the Notre Dame de Lorette. Totally artificial. Your photo has all the atmosphere that has been lost at these restored sights. My view anyhow! Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 Thanks Trenchtrotter, I think we sometimes just need to stand in the places where the armies fought and suffered, and let our imagination work unfettered by (sometimes) bland recreations of a time long gone. It is not my wish or intention to disparage the work undertaken at Bayernwald and I would be the first to support the preservation of the bunkers and mine shaft. But perhaps sometimes less is enough. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 I cannot really understand why there is a need to `restore` sites such as this. I think we may have seen the best of these places when they were not `improved` etc. The problem is that constant maintenance will be required in perpetuity and I think it would be good for people to consider this and other points when deciding to undertake such work. Must admit I appreciated it more like the photo (2001) I'm with you 100%, Norman. How realistic are those reconstructed trenches anyway? They look realistic if you want to know how they looked the first days of the war. After that.... Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 Bayernwald needs repair. Indeed. The town of Heuvelland - (Wijtschate) will repair the trenches so the special engineer of the province of West-Flanders is in charge to do a 'solid' renovation that can stand for more than 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 Although this sad state did have it's own charm. It certainly did!... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 ...though the health & safety brigade would have had a field day with this covered trench leading to a mine shaft (photos taken not too long after Andre's death to show the deterioration of the museum)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 July , 2007 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2007 It certainly did have a charm of its own before restoration. However, the restoration has taken place, for better or for worse, and, it seems a shame to allow it to decay any further than it already has. That was the point of showing the state as of last weekend. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 18 July , 2007 Share Posted 18 July , 2007 I get your point, Andy. Now it's reconstructed it should be maintained. But how original will it be, if it's going to be renovated to last at least 20 years, like Frie mentioned? I doubt the troops in 14-18 built them strong enough to be in there for 20 years! Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 The points made by Roel are in my opinion extremely valid and call into question the whole ethos of the `restoration` and `improvement` of battlefield sites, in particular those of WW1. What is the purpose of such extensive recreations which cannot and will never replicate the original, this sometimes I regret to say seems almost `theme park` in its final manifestation. An alternative for Bayernwald would have been the preservation of the bunkers and (suitably protected) the mine shaft, whilst filling in the old museum trenches and clearing the site. Information boards would give a potted history and access would be unrestricted. After all, how original is the existing recreation and will the infrequent visitor leave with a sanitised impression of the horrors of WW1. A not dissimilar situation arises in Bristol where Brunels ship the SS Great Britain is now `as new` and resplendent as at her launch in 1843. Again the most evocative sight to me was when she returned from the Falklands as a hulk and the sight of this proud ship at the end of her working life was how she should be remembered, ditto Bayernwald. It is worth saying that what has been done can be undone. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 Roel, The engineer - expert - (2007 solutions) did already excellent reparations. The reparations will continue. Concerning André.... He dug (his own ) trenches himself ! Nothing original, only money making... He bought some pill boxes when the motorway near Geluveld was constructed. And he told ..... , he told.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 Morning Frie Can you finish off what seems a very interesting item please - seems to be missing. thanks Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon6640 Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 Thanks Trenchtrotter, I think we sometimes just need to stand in the places where the armies fought and suffered, and let our imagination work unfettered by (sometimes) bland recreations of a time long gone. It is not my wish or intention to disparage the work undertaken at Bayernwald and I would be the first to support the preservation of the bunkers and mine shaft. But perhaps sometimes less is enough. Norman Norman, I appreciate your viewpoint, but feel it comes from a man who has the knowledge (no doubt the product of a deeply held interest) to imagine the view. Sadly we live in a world where the young generation do not go to a book or site like this to get the knowledge they need a trigger for their interest. If that means places such as this, which I think we all accept were reconstructions in any event, need to be maintained then so be it. If today's youth aren't given the opportunity to become interested then who in thirty years time will remember those who lost their lives? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 Hi Jon I of course completely respect your views and no doubt none of us is either completely wrong or completely right on the subject. I do however think that you cannot ignore the evidence of your own eyes when, for instance you see a crowd of laughing children standing in the `Passchendaele Experience` in the IFF Museum and wonder whether the presence of fake skulls etc under the floor is having any effect whatsoever on them. In complete contrast I was privileged to be at Tyne Cot when the remains of an `unknown soldier` was buried. A UK school party was there on a general visit clutching their standard-issue checklists, and getting bored, when some of them joined us at the short ceremony and showed a genuine interest and were moved by the proceedings when it was explained to them. I must say that these youngsters were a credit to their school and certainly understood what was happening. I see no reason at all to `dumb down` the subject and I firmly believe that to do so will have a retrograde effect on the understanding of those traumatic times. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 The engineer - expert - (2007 solutions) did already excellent reparations. The reparations will continue. Concerning André.... He dug (his own ) trenches himself ! Nothing original, only money making... He bought some pill boxes when the motorway near Geluveld was constructed. And he told ..... , he told.... I know Andre was a creative man in many ways -I'm one of the many he showed a painting supposedly painted by Hitler- but I never knew even his bunkers were fake. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 The pillboxes he bought are now at the museum in Zonnebeke........... The bunkers at Bayernwald are the original.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 July , 2007 Share Posted 19 July , 2007 Concerning André.... He dug (his own ) trenches himself ! Nothing original, only money making... Of course he did. He did actually dig some of them on the original lines though, using indentations present in the wood - in fact a couple were re-dug and are still now present in Croonaert Wood's modern guise (which , incidentally, mistakenly uses the line of a British post-1917 trench railway as one of the German comms trenches ). Much ,as you say, was pure fabrication though. In my opinion, Croonaert Wood and Andre (for all his faults - some of which I hope do not get ressurected on here) were two of the most interesting features of the whole area in my formative years of battlefield wanderings. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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