Peter Beckett Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 In this photo, is the horseman galloping towards or away from Ypres? if towards then were the hessian screens hiding him from the German artilliery to the north or conversely, galloping away, then screening from artilliery to the south. I have looked at various trench maps to try and work out where the batteries would have been placed. If they were both sides because of the salient bulge then should there have been screens on either side of the road? Also, I gather there was a system of coloured lamps used as traffic signals. Does any photos exist of these? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Hi Peter The German guns in the St. Eloi - Hill 60 area, enfiled the Hellfire Corner area alot but I do not know if the road came under much fire from the north ? I would say the horseman is going toward the front line. But looking again at the picture there is a slight ridge in the back ground which could be Bellewaarde ridge and in that case they are going away from the line. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 The screening would have been for observers rather than the guns per se. German OPs could have been to the north? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I've been looking at a map of the area and I'am now sure that the photographer as his back to Ypres. The contours between Hellfire Corner and Ecole remain at 35 and then go down 20 towards Ypres. And the contours between Hellfire Corner and Bellewaarde ridge rise to 45, so the horsemen are coming away from the front line. Does anyone know the date of photo- could it be after the capture of Messines Ridge, thus the danger from enfiled gun fire from St. Eloi - Hill 60 area would be removed, and before or evan during open day (s) of Third Ypres, were there would still be danger of observation from the north. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Yes, I think the horsemen are going AWAY from Ypres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I wonder if the ' camouflage net ' on the photo can help to define the direction. Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Peter, Annette, There has never been the slightest doubt in my mind when seeing this wellknown photo that the horseman is galloping towards Ypres. And that the screens on the left side were on the northeastern side. Was it intuition ? Was it the trees leaning slightly towards the left side of the photo (northwest, as the prevailing wind direction is from southwest). A few minutes ago however I found that is was more than intuition : the same photo (as you, Peter, used in your posting), together with the view in modern times, in John Giiles, The Ypres Salient - Flanders then and now. Below the photo from my edition 1979, page 81. But a similar (more modern) photo is in John Giles, Flanders then and now - Ypres Salient and Passchendaele, 1987, page 71. From the text that goes with the photo below : "The horizon marks the slight ridge along with the trenches were situated for so long and where so much bitter fighting took place. Chateau Wood is at the top left and Sanctuary Wood is on the distant right. The tiny hamlet of Hooge stands where the road fades into the distance." That's the way John Giles saw it, and that's the way I have always seen it. So : horseman galloping towards Ypres Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I agree with Annete, Burlington and Aurel, and I have always thought that the horsemen are riding towards Ypres. 1 The sign would surely face so that people coming from Ypres would see it and be able to identify the spot? 2 The sign is just beyond the turning towards St. Jan. You can see the start of the St. Jan road just below the sign, so the sign was just about where the actual crossroad was. Beyond the crossroad was a railway-crossing. You can see the line of the railway on the right of the photograph (where the single horseman is) and on the left of the road you can see where it continues on a slight embankment, just to the left of the screens, running off to left edge of the picture towards Railway Wood. The tracks are gone from the road, but you can see from the remains on either side that the railway crossed the road diagonally, and not at right-angles to the road. This can be seen very clearly in maps of the area including this one posted by Annette in the "Ecole" thread. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 My first impression when I looked at this photo is that the horsemen are riding towards Ieper, and as Tom says surely the Hellfire sign would be seen as you approached from Ieper! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 3 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2004 Thanks to all for the interesting info. The red dot is then, where I would put the 2 horsemen with the direction as per arrow. Peter PS. Going back to the original photo it also now strikes me as a little odd that the 2 horsemen and the gun limber behind are going "flat out" yet the 2 horsemen on the right by the railway easement appear to be out for a "sunday" ride. Definitely no hurry there. If I was a cynic, I might suggest the photo was a pose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 3 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2004 Try the map again Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 Morning, Peter, I agree absolutely with your red dot! For obvious reasons I've always had an interest in Hellfire Corner. Besides, it was one of the first "Great War Sites" I learned the name of, at the age of about six. I think the picture might not be posed because I think the screening was there so that the Germans couldn't see what was coming next over the crossroad and more important, they couldn't see when it started to move, so by the time they saw a cart or whatever on the crossing, it would be too late to fire a round as the target would be out of the way before the shell arrived. Frank Holmes, a driver with the RHA told me that a team would always stop for ten seconds or so before crossing the junction, a little way back if possible, and then whip up the horses to a flat-out gallop and get across as fast as they could. (The same kind of thing happened at night, with the process controlled by lights. ) The vehicle waiting to cross in the picture seems to be standing still. I wonder if the screens were there to allow this "cat and mouse" sort of thing? If so, the "Sunday" rider might appear unconcerned because he was out of sight. I would be an interesting exercise to locate the position of the German guns at a period when they did have direct observation, and go and have a look at what the exact sight-lines were. Do you know the date of your map? Is it a post-war one? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 In this photo, is the horseman galloping towards or away from Ypres? Just to be pedantic . They are not galloping but trotting. During a gallop both forward and aft pairs of legs are syncronised and each pair leave the ground at the same time. These horses are trotting, but may well be building up speed to allow them to gallop . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 3 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2004 Morning Tom, I thought you would be interested as I am. The photo has also fascinated me, as it gives a glimpse of "other " hazards of the front. The map is from a trench map 28NW4 dated 25/03/18 and corrected to 27/03/18. It one of 2 listed under Ypres on the Trench Map CD. I am wondering if there are many more photos of the area. Hello Raster, Not being an expert of of equine matters, I bow to your superior knowledge Either way, it appears to me that they are not "mucking abaht" at HellFire Corner Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 The map is from a trench map 28NW4 dated 25/03/18 and corrected to 27/03/18. It one of 2 listed under Ypres on the Trench Map CD. Peter, The reason I asked about the date on the map is that I can see an intriguing "Hellfire Stone" marked just to the west of Hellfire Corner itself, and on the North side of the road. If the map is dated as corrected to 27.3.18 then it isn't the present Demarcation Stone, so I wonder what it was?? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Peter, could you check the original? I wonder if it says HELLFIRE STORE rather than HELLFIRE STONE? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 4 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Tom, I saw that too, but think that it should be read as Hellfire Corner Stone Siding. There is a spur coming off the mainline just south of the Corner. What do you think? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Tom, I saw that too, but think that it should be read as Hellfire Corner Stone Siding. There is a spur coming off the mainline just south of the Corner. Peter, I think you're right. You can see what happened, I'm sure. I saw "Hellfire Stone" and that was it! It never even occurred to me that "Corner Siding" was part of the same location-name. That has to be the answer, of course, because there were RE men stationed at Hellfire Corner to repair the holes in the road from the shelling. Now we know where they got the stone from. (though I think it might be the tiny siding just beside the crossroad on the Northern side, which I think might have been the army light railway. The little siding appears between the "Hellfire Stone" and "Corner Siding" names.) Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 This thread just made me think of a conversation I had with Tom when he introduced me to Hellfire Corner. He told me to look up the road to the ridge ... and I asked him "what ridge" ... One thing one must remember to do when talking about the Ypres Salient, etc. is to explain to people that the contour lines of this area are very wide ... things like Hills and Ridges are a matter of perception and very small degrees ... When "climbing" Hill 60 don't blink or worry about hiking boots and oxygen ... the approachs to important German strong holds are "uphill" only to those who have protractors ... While this area is not Lubbock or Amarillo (where the earth REALLY is flatter than a pancake) it's not a place of dynamic topography. Sorry for the off-point interuption ... but I can remember standing at one of the German blockhouses and looking down the avenue of approach and wondering how anyone made it those 1000 yards ... I could control the area for a decade with one machine gun ... Okay, sorry ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 I can remember standing at one of the German blockhouses and looking down the avenue of approach and wondering how anyone made it those 1000 yards ... I could control the area for a decade with one machine gun ... It makes you realise what a great job the artillery did. Under huge pressure in the exposed ground of the salient, they not enabled infantry to close on the blockhouses but they also helped nullify counter-attacks. So my reply would be, you could hold it for a decade provided there was nothing coming at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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