jim_davies Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Just a couple of questions on war memorials. Which groups were responsible for collecting the names of the fallen and handling the subscriptions to pay for the memorials ? I was thinking along the lines of the local parish council. The two war memorials I'm interested in are both small villages. And Assuming the parish council was responsible would they still have records on who the subscribers were ? ie Would it be worthwhile to contact them ? Thanks. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Jim, there's an article which gives some details on how local war memorials were set up at: http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/memorials.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 I can only speak for my area in the UK (when I lived in England), Bedfordshire. Most memorials in the villages were set up as a result of a comittee of locals (normally including the vicar) getting together and deciding in what form the local dead would be commemorated. In small villages the names to be included were known by everyone. In my experience any records of this nature have all been deposited in the local record office, if they have survived at all. After the war the church also compiled a list, the Diocese of St Albans asked all the relevant vicars to compile a list of dead from their parish, this is available at the Bedfordshire and Luton Record Office. Each Parish Clerk in Bedfordshire was also required to send details, to the local government offices in Bedford, of all from a parish who served. Some did not bother, others supplied a very detailed list. These lists are also available at the above mentioned record office. When researching a small village war memorial, I found the local newspapers gave a great deal of info on local preparations for erection of a memorial as well as the opening ceremony John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 When researching the records of a parish in England, you must bear in mind that there are two types of parish both with their own separate records. The ecclesiastical parish is responsible for church related affairs (made famous by the 'Vicar of Dibley') and many memorials were erected with substantial church involvement in the organising committees - hence many memorials being in churchyards. These councils are usually known as Parochial Parish Councils (PPC) and their records are often (not always) deposited in the county archives. The other parish is the civil parish and this is the lowest tier of local government and has no connection with the Church. They have their own records and, even though the name of the parish can be the same for both church & civil, their boundaries can cover different areas. Some of the civil parish councils would also have been involved in the committees. These records are also usually in the county archives but individual Parish Clerks will be able to let you know if this is the case. As many memorials were erected by these ad hoc committees, there has been doubt over actual ownership of some of them in recent years. However, local councils (parish or otherwise) do have the legal powers to maintain and repair them if ownership is in doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 I have found a very useful read on this subject in Memorials of the Great War in Britain: The Symbolism and Politics of Remembrance by Alex King. Also some information in The Silence of Memory: Armistice Day 1919 - 1946, by Adrian Gregory. Both published by Berg in The Legacy of the Great War series sponsored by the historial at Peronne-Somme. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 13 January , 2003 Share Posted 13 January , 2003 Jim Can you name the villages you are interested in please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 14 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Hi guys, Thanks for all of the leads. You given me a lot to think about and a few different avenues to explore. Both war memorials are to the best of my knowledge either inside a church or on church land. The two memorials I'm interested in are both in Rutland, and have the names of Charles Jarvis and George Boyall on them. I've found a great deal of info from contributors on the forum with regard to these two lads, and haven't been dissapointed with the response here. I came across a website with the photographs and inscriptions of several Rutland war memorials and was lucky enough to track down Charlie and George on it Charlie is one of two men on a memorial at Clipsham. I was rather surprised that he wasn't on the one for Ketton (where he was born), Pickworth (where he spent most of his childhood) or Essendine (where he father moved to either during or after the war). Having seen a photo, it appears to be a plaque, and is likely on the wall of the local parish church. George is on the memorial at Ketton. This appears to be a standard memorial with a cross on top, and the names listed on the main body of the memorial. I think Rutland did a similar thing to Bedfordshire, as the page of "Rutland and the Great War" on Clipsham also lists the men of the parish that served. The museum at Oakham have been very helpful in the past when I was researching the general family history, so I think I'll give them a try. If anyone is interested I have just found a copy of the book "Rutland & the Great War" online which I intend to purchase. Once I have it I'll do look-ups for anyone who is interested. Rigth now I just have the photocopied pages showing Clipsham and Charlie's bio. Its about time I repaid all the help I've been getting ! Cheers, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Last year when I visited Godstone, Surrey, I was able to read the Parish Magazines well back into the 1800s. Reading the history of the village during the War gives one great insight into the day-to-day life. In Godstone, the members of the War memorial committee were initially drawn from church members who had lost a son. The first meeting was called in early 1917. The committee was later expanded as the war progressed. If you can find the Parish Magazines, usually not deposited in local archives, they couldbe an excellent source of the progression of the memorial from inception to dedication. Cynthia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 I have been researching the memorials for my area of North West Kent for the past three years and so far have 75 on record. Of these the vast majority are either near churches or in them but schools feature quite prominently too. I have found that some of the best sources for information comes from the local papers with reports on sub committee meetings to general letters voicing opinion as to the style and postion of the memorial. I think that the first public subscription memorial, that most of us would recognise as a memorial i.e. stone cross, for my area was at Rosherville in Northfleet in February 1920 and then after this a race to get other memorials erected, especially between rival towns. Most memorials are featured when they are unveiled and this allows you to track down those that now do not exist, there are at least 7 in my area. The good thing about these articles is that they usually have a list of those on the memorials and so you can at least try and put the pieces back together. The council for Gravesend unveiled a memorial to those that had fallen in 1917 but as the war hadn't finished neither did the collection of names, this was originally called a "War Shrine" and many towns and villages had these for soldiers serving as well as those killed. There is even an article in the Gravesend and Dartford Reporter of a memorial erected in 1916 at Coal House Fort (Essex) by the R.E. I have found that by collecting as much information as possible from the newspapers; letters, death notices, memoriams, awards, works lists, rolls of honour (especially during the early years) you have a much of higher chance of being successful in any research that you are doing. Good luck Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Some good points mentioned. As Andrew has pointed out you have to look in lots of different places to get little snippets of information here and there. One point that I would add is don't always restrict your research from local newspapers to 1914-1918 and the years immediately afterwards. A number of newspapers carried commemorative articles on significant aniversaries of the memorial unveiling (e.g. 50 years on) which can prove very informative. Also, from my experience it may prove beneficial to contact local history societies, etc to see if they have any information. Regards Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 15 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Mark, Andrew & cynthia thanks for the input, I hope to return to the UK in 2004 for a couple of weeks, and look at the Rutland & Stamford Mercury archives. The local library apparently holds them on microfilm. I'm trying to get some of the family interested in Charlie and George, but no-one seems too bothered right now. Its a shame, especially as they're still local to the area. The plan for now is to write to the two churches, the parish councils, the folks at the local museum, and whine at the relatives to see if anyone would be willing to put in some leg work. Thanks again for all of the great ideas. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Jim Write to the library as well, if you haven't already done so - Librarians are extremely helpful with this kind of research (well mine are). Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Jim Some examples of the memorials in my area Gravesham Borough Council has in storage two memorials from the Medway towns area that came from the Blue Circle cement works collection. British Standard Cement workers memorial One of unknown works origin but commemorating men from the area of Strood, Kent (believe it or not Strood doesn't even have a memorial!) Galley Hill, Swanscombe, Kent, All Saints church has been converted into flats; but at least the memorial is on the outside of the building - but who will look after it? The memorial I mentioned that was the original town memorial erected in 1917 is now locked up in the disused Magistrates Court (Old Town Hall) Kent County Council own this but have not decided its fate (has been closed for two years already. Stone, Kent - abandoned it's memorial in the '70's and erected a blank obelisk in the park over the road, there is a book of Remembrance listing those that were on the memorial that is in St Mary's Church at Stone - but try getting in when it's open! Gravesend Liberal Club had a stone tablet in their billiard room listing 6 men - gone whilst under the ownership of Kent County Council. Milton-next-Gravesend has a memorial listing 117 names on four panels - two are illegible and the others fading fast (this one is top of my list and I am actively campaigning to restore it at the moment) Post Office memorial - 9 men (wood and bronze) is locked away in the managers office after being rescued from the bike sheds by a disgruntled employee, the roll of honour has disappeared. Perry Street, Northfleet All Saints church - nearly in as bad a condition as Milton. Princes Street Congregational Church - gone. Rosherville, Northfleet, Kent St Mark's - not far behind Perry Street. St James' School memorial - gone. Trinity Church memorial organ - gone. Henleys Cable Works - 112 employees, (wood) - I have a photo of this one - gone. Just for information Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 16 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2003 Andrew, It is a real shame that all those memorials you mention have been lost. A little while ago someone (Terry I think) posted the legislation concerning war memorials located on Church of England premises. Good luck with the attempts to restore the Milton memorial. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 16 January , 2003 Share Posted 16 January , 2003 Jim, regarding the purchase of Rutland in the Great War; are you getting the original lavishly illustrated A4 version, or the recent reprint done as 2x A5 volumes at £6 each? Obviously, the former is the one to have as the latter, though reprinting all that valuable information, is essentially a collection of reduced photocopies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 2 April , 2003 Share Posted 2 April , 2003 Following an earlier posting I listed Henley's Telegraph Works War Memorial as "gone" - Well it's now returned! I received a telephone call recently from David Oliver who works at the site and he informed me that the memorial had been "stored" in the WW2 air raid shelters that are on the site (Henley's manufactured the PLUTO pipeline for the Normandy landings) and that it had been discovered by chance. Good news, but now the memorial has been handed over to me with the purpose of restoring and re-displaying it in the public domain. Oh well, more work to be done I guess. There are 112 names on this memorial and at least now they will not be forgotten. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 1 May , 2003 Share Posted 1 May , 2003 Hi all Here is a photo of Henley's war memorial, good excuse to try the new photograph uploading thingamajigy Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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