What's this cudgel-type thing?

[angelab]

I have this strange truncheon-type thing, inherited from my father-in-law's house (who was in WW1 - though in Transport rather than in the trenches, I think). Having recently seen pictures of the sort of silent weapons soldiers took on trench-raiding sorties, I wonder if it could have a connection with those.

It is about 30cm long (sorry the ruler is a bit blurred). It's very heavy at one end (feels like a piece of lead inside). The "stalk" is black material - maybe bamboo - that is twisted, which makes it feel springy and whippy. It would deal a fearsome blow.

Anybody know what it is?

Angela

(Hope I have managed the pix correctly!)

[Dan Brock]

I have this strange truncheon-type thing, inherited from my father-in-law's house (who was in WW1 - though in Transport rather than in the trenches, I think). Having recently seen pictures of the sort of silent weapons soldiers took on trench-raiding sorties, I wonder if it could have a connection with those.

It is about 30cm long (sorry the ruler is a bit blurred). It's very heavy at one end (feels like a piece of lead inside). The "stalk" is black material - maybe bamboo - that is twisted, which makes it feel springy and whippy. It would deal a fearsome blow.

Anybody know what it is?

Angela

(Hope I have managed the pix correctly!)

I think it is one of those. Although I don't have a solid handle on what they looked like, this sounds like a South African "knobkerrie"

[Greg]

Are the head and foot flexible ie woven with weights inside or are they solid? The knobkerries I have seen have a solid wooden 'knob' at the top although sometimes they are covered with beading. It certainly looks like 'native' work Had he spent time in Africa or India? A you say if he was in transport it is less likely that he would need a trench club unless he started as an infatryman and then passed on to unit transport.Perhaps this was a souvenir although clearly it could be used as an effective trench club.

Greg

[Grovetown]

One sees a good few of these items, very often described as a 'trench cosh' or similar. Indeed, no doubt they could probably serve in that role - but one imagines that 99% of them, without some provenance, are angler's or poacher's 'priests' used for despatching large fish or small game.

As an aside, this one also looks like a 'Bodhran beater' - the double-ended stick for the Irish drum (although the lead end goes against that theory).

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[sjustice]

One sees a good few of these items, very often described as a 'trench cosh' or similar. Indeed, no doubt they could probably serve in that role...

I agree with Grovetown. It "looks" like a trench club. One of the many weapons found to be much more useful than a bayonet attached to a rifle.

When you look at that and some of the weapons shown in Max Poilu's post HERE the phrase, "hand-to-hand" becomes chillingly clear. The photo of the raiders in the same post takes some beating, too

Kind Regards,

SMJ

[Grovetown]

Thanks for the agreement Simon - although the point I was (imperfectly) hoping to make was that while many of these look like they could be trench clubs, and would do the job no doubt, the reality is that they probably aren't.

Best wishes,

GT.

[angelab]

Ah, the knobkerrie might be a possibility.

In fact on further reflection, it might have come from my great-grandmother's house, and she did have South African connections. (Her brother was among those besieged at Kimberley, during the Boer War; maybe he carried this when he was on sentry-duty!)

I did a search for knobkerries, and saw the beaded ones described above. The ends of mine are woven in similar fashion, but in thin string rather than beading, and the head is VERY heavy, clearly with a lump of lead inside or similar. The whippiness of the stem means it would hit with some force.

Sorry this has turned out to be off-topic! I had seen some rather objects rather like it in the WW1 section at the IWM the other day and it sent me off down this wrong trail...

Angela

[centurion]

This looks much like what was known as a 'life preserver' (when in the hands of a respectible citizen for self defence) or a cosh (when in criminal use). They were made and sold commercially although plenty of home made versions were doubtless produced as well. Their purpose was to knock someone out without necessarily killing them. If you listen to one of the policemen's choruses in the Pirates of Penzance part of the copper's weaponry are life presevers "in case you should want to hit". Often to be found in ordinary Victorian and Edwardian households in case of burglars but they would also have been the sort of thing used to stun a sentry in trench raids when the intention was to grab a prisoner for questioning. There are some references to life preservers being carried by patrols in no mans land as they were relatively noisless.

[truthergw]

This is a cosh, trench club, knobkerrie. life preserver, billie etc. The list of names is endless. It was made as a weapon and was meant to be used on the shoulders and collar bones to disable rather than kill. Whether it was actually used in the trenches would be very hard to prove or disprove.

[graeme g]

This is a cosh, trench club, knobkerrie. life preserver, billie etc. The list of names is endless. It was made as a weapon and was meant to be used on the shoulders and collar bones to disable rather than kill. Whether it was actually used in the trenches would be very hard to prove or disprove.

Hi definitely not a knobkerrie ,dont think its a trench club pretty sure its its a sailors cosh the springy shaft made from baleen ( whalebone )

[Max Poilu]

Have a look in the link above by Simon and there are quite a few pics of various Great War era clubs I posted. Angela - there are some from the IWM you might recognise too.

My feeling is that this particular object is not a 14-18 trench club (knobkerrie, cosh etc).

[truthergw]

Hi definitely not a knobkerrie ,dont think its a trench club pretty sure its its a sailors cosh the springy shaft made from baleen ( whalebone )

Hi Graeme. A knobkerrie was not as specialised weapon as you seem to think. It was originally a club carried by Masai and Zulu warriors, held in the left hand behind the shield and used when the assegais were all thrown and they closed for hand to hand fighting. English speakers picked up the word during their many battles and indeed, wars with these South African tribesmen and applied the word to any club. Troops serving in the South African Wars would be exposed to the name again. Thus a general name in the army for a club.

[centurion]

All life preservers are coshes but not all coshes are life preservers. The latter can be various sizes and shapes and both rigid and flexible (in fact blunt instruments). Technically a life preserver can be fitted in a pocket (albeit sometimes a large one) and has a flexible (whippy) shaft and a rounded and weighted end. The RN issued these to petty officers in Nelsonian times (also refering to them as persuaders) but they also became popular (at least if you weren't on the receiving end) in the merchant service. The one shown in the opening posting on this thread is very similar to photos of Naval life preservers of the 1840s , especially the twisted shaft and the fitting and pattern of the rounded head. As I said before they became popular as a household and pocket weapon and (like names such as hoover, refridgerator) the specific name became used more generally for many other forms of blunt intsrument. They appear in much late Victorian and Edwardian literature (Raffles carried one). Its certainly possible that some found their way to the front. They were still being made and sold commercially in the USA as were a number of patterns of knuckle duster and as I have sen some evidence of soldiers buying the latter through mail order there is no reason not to believe that the former were also obtained.

I think that a knobkerry does not have a flexible shaft and is longer.

However there is nothing to prove that this particular life preserver was used in the trenches and I suspect that it is just an interesting naval antique.

[angelab]

Yes, I am inclined to think it was not from the trenches at all - but thank you so much everyone for all the discussion.

I never imagined I would become a near-expert in coshes!

Angela

[auchonvillerssomme]

its a fishing 'priest' for killing fish.

Mick

[SiegeGunner]

its a fishing 'priest' for killing fish.

I think it's too long for a priest, and priests generally have a smooth head to avoid (unduly) marking the fish. All manner of implements are used as priests (I have a large pestle in my sea-fishing bag, and once subdued a conger eel with an adjustable spanner), but I don't see this one as being suitable. Can Angela identify or guess at the material from which the the bulbous ends are made?

[philtaylor]

That thing looks like its been used or carried a bit.

[angelab]

I think it's definitely a knobkerrie. It's identical to pictures of them that I have been looking at since this thread got under way. The springiness of the shaft and weight of the end would mean that any fish would be obliterated if conked on the head with it.

The end is whipped in thin cord, and clearly contains a heavy chunk of lead. In fact even the handle end is pretty heavy and seems to have a smaller quantity of lead in it. The shaft, as I say, is composed of some strong, twisted strands of what I now realise may be baleen which means it would bend as you moved it violently, giving extra weight (literally) to the blow you were about to strike. Ugh.

Angela

[SiegeGunner]

If it is a knobkerrie, I would think it's extremely unlikely that the shaft is made from any part of a whale — more likely twisted animal sinew or long strips of thick hide.

[centurion]

Attached photo of naval life preserver manufactured between 1840 and 1860 - pretty close match - not a knobkery, not a priest!

[angelab]

Sorry Centurion - Yes, life-preserver!

I always used to wonder what those were, when I listened to the Pirates of Penzance. And now I have my very own!! ;-)

Angela

[SiegeGunner]

Attached photo of naval life preserver manufactured between 1840 and 1860 - pretty close match - not a knobkery, not a priest!

I'd say that was fairly conclusive — but what were naval life-preservers modelled on?

[walrus]

"...but what were naval life-preservers modelled on?..."

I believe that the traditional 'persuaders' were based on the 'starter', a length of rope with a "Turk's Head" splice at the end.

Make a 'starter' from a stout rope and you have cheap weapon; tar this and you have cudgel, hard yet with a certain resilience in the 'shaft'.

The example illustrated even has a twist to the shaft which is reminiscent of the 'twist' of a length of rope.

Any help?

Tom t W

[centurion]

I believe that the traditional 'persuaders' were based on the 'starter', a length of rope with a "Turk's Head" splice at the end.

Make a 'starter' from a stout rope and you have cheap weapon; tar this and you have cudgel, hard yet with a certain resilience in the 'shaft'.

The example illustrated even has a twist to the shaft which is reminiscent of the 'twist' of a length of rope.

Any help?

Tom t W

That's a clever explanation! The other examples I've seen of these blunt intruments in naval service all share the twisted shaft made of some flexible whippy black material and have turks head like ends. Petty officers below the rank of B'osun (who carried a rataan) had starters so possibly this was a PO's weapon. If this is so it would look likely that these particular items evolved in the navy and later leaked out into civvy street for the use of types like Raffles and (I think) Dr Watson and real householders. If one thinks about it fighting below decks in a sailing ship would have many of the characteristics of a trench raid with limited room to use a more conventional weapon so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of these found their way to the front as unofficial equipment.

[Jenko]

It’s a bosuns persuader, the barley twist stick part is dried Strips whale baleen, which is the filtration of the whales mouth, Which is strong and flexible. Pre dates ww1 by upto a 100 years.
very collectible in its own right.

neil