1st/1st Cheshire Brigade RFA (TF) - History?

[potty5]

Dear forum members, I have a picture of the 1st/1st Cheshire Brigade RFA (TF) outside Chester Cathedral in 1914 just prior to WW1. The two batteries pictured were supposedly made up of Crewe men. Does anybody know the history of the Brigade and where they fought. I know they joined the 53rd Division later in the war and also they were numbered 267th Briagde then the 265th Brigade. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks alot, Mark Potts

[pbrydon]

Mark,

There is some information in Norman Lichfields book "The Territorial Artillery 1908-1988", if you will E mail me I will scan the relevant page and send it to you.

Regards

Peter

[KONDOA]

Number series for this TF Brigade,

735001-740000 267 BDE, RFA TF/ 1/1 CHESHIRE BDE (RENUMBERED 265, DEC 16)

Using the MIC index it is possible to approximate the battery composition as a snapshot of those still with the brigade at the renumbering.

eg

Medal card of Palmer, James F

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 3 Battery Serjeant Major

Royal Field Artillery 735001 Battery Serjeant Major

Royal Field Artillery 3 Serjeant

Medal card of Pearson, Henry

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Field Artillery 4 Warrant Officer Class 2

Royal Field Artillery 735002 Warrant Officer Class 2

etc.

Roop

[ororkep]

Would like to see the photos….

265 went to France 22/11/15 as 1st Welsh (How) attached to 32 Div originally. Left France and joined 53 Div in Egypt in Feb 1916. Was numbered 265 in May 1916 but broken up 25/12/16 because…..

Originally 1/1 Cheshire Brigade RFA TF in 1914, 267 Bde were numbered as such in 26/5/16, and renumbered as 265 on 25/12/16 when B267 Bde became A265 Bde, and C267 Bde became B265 Bde. Originally went to France 22/11/15 as 1st Cheshires attached to 32 Div, again joining 53 Div and in Egypt Feb 1916. A diary can be found from entry to armistice at ref WO95/4620

Rgds Paul

[pbrydon]

Mark,

I have only just found the attached pictures ( I knew I had them but they were temporarily misplaced) and thought they might be of interest.

You can clearly see the T/RFA/CHESHIRE shoulder title on the head and shoulders photo. The Photographer is J.L.Hart,52 Nantwich Road,Crewe

Peter

[Hoplophile]

265 went to France 22/11/15 as 1st Welsh (How) attached to 32 Div originally. Left France and joined 53 Div in Egypt in Feb 1916. Was numbered 265 in May 1916 but broken up 25/12/16 because…..

The breaking up of batteries and brigades of the Royal Field Artillery was a common event in the winter of 1916-1917, which saw the replacement of a large number of four-piece batteries with a smaller number of six-piece batteries, as well as the replacement of 'thoroughbred' gun and howitzer brigades with brigades of the 'mixed' variety.

In most cases I am familiar with, the breaking up of a four-piece battery involved assigning one section to an existing four-piece battery and the other section to another four-piece battery. In this way, sections were spared the loss of morale and skill that inevitably follows the atomisation of a cohesive unit. This manner of doing business also facilitates the tracing of the careers of many of the men who served in disbanded batteries. That is the war diary of the disbanded battery will usually indicate the disposition of its component sections, and the war diaries of the batteries receiving the sections will record that fact. Of course, this only works for men who served within sections, and not those who were in the battery headquarters. Thus, gunners and drivers are easier to trace than battery commanders, seconds-in-command, battery sergeants-major, quartermaster sergeants, and farriers. Once their battery was disbanded, these might have ended up anywhere in the Royal Regiment of Artillery, which, in the middle and late years of the war, had a strength that hovered in the vicinity of five hundred thousand.

[eyes]

Good day to all

I was just browsing through and noticed a topic of discussion dear to my heart. The 267 (Cheshire) Bde, RFA, my grandads outfit. I have always wondered at a peculiar bit of family history. He joined the Cheshire Bde in 1914, that I know. He did not get to France until 1915, apparently with the 32nd Div. At some point (1916 sounds right) they reorganized to the 265th Bde. And his Bty, C when he joined, became B, I think. And then the 265th went off to rejoin the 53rd Div in the Middle East.

But here's the kicker. My granddad never went to the Middle East. He remained in France to be gassed and wounded in 1918. Furthermore, there was never a hint that he served with anyone other than the Cheshire Bde. The only clue I have is a very faded photo of him and, presumably, his mates which reads "Ten of the best in France', C Sub, D/245.

Now what on earth was a Cheshire Bde, RFA lad doing in the 245th which was, I think attached to the West Riding?

Any ideas gratefully received.

Colin Affleck

Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

[Hoplophile]

C Battery, 267 (Cheshire) Brigade of the 53rd (Welsh) Division, which started the war as the 3rd Cheshire Battery of the Cheshire Brigade of the Welsh Division of the Territorial Force, became B Battery, 265 (Cheshire) Brigade on Christmas Day, 1916. At that time, the battery, with its parent brigade and, indeed, the entire Welsh Division, was serving in Egypt.

For additional details, see the following thread.

[eyes]

C Battery, 267 (Cheshire) Brigade of the 53rd (Welsh) Division, which started the war as the 3rd Cheshire Battery of the Cheshire Brigade of the Welsh Division of the Territorial Force, became B Battery, 265 (Cheshire) Brigade on Christmas Day, 1916. At that time, the battery, with its parent brigade and, indeed, the entire Welsh Division, was serving in Egypt.

For additional details, see the following thread.

Thank you very much for this. It confirms what I only had bits and pieces of. The Cheshire Bde RFA did indeed go off to Egypt. At least that makes sense. Sadly, I am still left with the mystery of how a member of the Cheshire Bde, RFA, (apparently still wearing the T resting on the RFA over the Cheshire), somehow remained in France when the rest of his lot, including his Bty, were sent to Egypt. And if that old photo is correct, he was part of D Bty, 245 Bde. Which makes no sense at all. Ah well. If it was easy, as they say, anyone could do it. Many thanks again. This is my first foray into the "Great War Forum" and I mark it a solid success. Thanks again.

Colin Affleck

[Hoplophile]

Eureka!

I have the last piece of the puzzle.

D Battery of the 245th (IV West Riding) Brigade of the 49th Division was previously D Battery of the 168th Brigade, a New Army unit that was part of the divisional artillery of the 32nd Division. This transfer took place on 16 February 1916, shortly after the Cheshire Brigade (and the rest of the divisional artillery of the Welsh Division) left France for Egypt.

This creates the possibility that your grandfather transferred to D/168th Brigade when the temporary divisional artillery of the 32nd Division was relieved by the permanent divisional artillery of that formation. The evidence is circumstantial, but at least it permits the creation of a reasonably good hypothesis.

[eyes]

Hmmm. Not bad sir. That is indeed a working hypothesis. The connection in terms of units certainly works and the timing seems about right. Many thanks.

Colin Affleck

[huytonhoofer]

Interestingly I've just spent a weekend in Chester ( first visit) and spent a bit of time in the cathederal. The role of all the Cheshire's during the Great War is fittingly acknowledged and I was able to take photo's of the some of the memorials to the fallen, amongst them the Roll of Honour of The Cheshire Brigade RFA Territorials 1914 - 1919 and the Cheshire Yeomanry, along with Colours and Battle Honours.

It was nice to be able to go into a place of worship and be allowed to take photo's.

If anyone would like me to post what I have then please let me know.

Jack

[Brian104]

Hello Potty5,

Would it be possible to see the picture of the Cheshire Brigade, outside Chester Cathedral.

Many thanks,

Brian

[Guest]

My wifes Great Uncle served with the 265th Brigade RFA, he was Sergeant George Snell. He servived the war and had 4 boys. I have researched the Brigade and found various accounts of the battles they faught in. I also have a few photo's of George and his comrades in Egypt. If anyone has any info/letters/photo's I would be really grateful if they could contact me. I am willing to share, anything I have found out.

[Monstar]

Hi All,

I was just doing a google search, as you do for the 256th Bde R.F.A. and I found this thread. I'm trying to find some additional information on a Henry George POLLARD from Chester.

I do have a copy of a photo in which Henry and eight others are named if anybody is interested..

Regards

Paul.

[Guest]

My late father-in-law in 1916 was originally in 40th division Royal Field Artillery, c/34 Army Brigade, 181 Battery.  He was hit by shrapnel at Bourlon Wood, possibly on the 30th Nov. 1917.  After being sent to Selly Oak hospital, Birmingham for treatment he then returned to France in late Feb. 1918 but appears to have been returned not to his previous Brigade but to 245 Brigade, 49th Division.   He ended his service in Germany with the 245 Brigade.  Can someone explain why he changed Brigades.

[David Porter]

Welcome to the Forum Valerie,

 

Is there any reason you have placed your query here? It is an old thread about 1st Cheshire Brigade RFA and your Father-in-Law's service does not appear to relate in any way.

 

However, to answer your question - he was away from his unit for 3 months which was plenty of time for his position to be replaced by someone else. Each unit had what was known as an establishment of certain numbers of each rank. Therefore, once it was known he would not return from hospital quickly his place would go to a reinforcement. Once your Father-in-Law was fit to return to France he would be held at Le Harve until the call came from one of the many units over there to be reinforced.

 

If you could provide a name and number for him, there are plenty of people here willing to dig a bit deeper for any extra information you may not have.

[Guest]

 

Hi, I may be too late coming to this forum, but I’m researching my grandfathers WWI military history.

Re: Driver, William L. Williams, No: 735396, 1st Cheshire Brigade, RFA, T.F. He was recruited in Chester in 1914 and served in France, Egypt and throughout the Palestinian Campaign, until May 1919.

I have followed his brigades movements through the war, via the Official War Dairies, examining the original papers in series: WO 95/4617, WO 95/4618, WO 95/4619 and WO 95/4620, which are all held at The National Archives.

I’m willing to shear and or swap photos and any other information regarding the 1st Cheshire Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, (RFA) Territorial Force, (TF) who were converted to the 267th Brigade RFA and later renumbered into the 265th Brigade RFA, as part of the 53rd (Welsh) Division, Egyptian Expeditionary Force.