nshighlander Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Hi Where there any Btn found to be the bestSomeone said or was in a book that the 25 CEF where consider one of the best.Any one have info on this? Happy New Year Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Dave I am not sure how this could be determined. Any such claim, particularly if it were made by the unit involved, would mirror the natural tendency of almost every unit to believe that they were best at one thing or another. Probably best taken with a grain of salt, although someone somewhere may have been totting up the results of trench raids. 'Trench raids' is a term that covers a variety of attacks on the enemy that are not battles (my simple definition ). They range in size from the occasional single individual through to the 'raid' by the British 8th Division on La Vacquerie on May 5, 1917. The objectives could include capture of prisoners for identification and interrogation, killing the enemy, reconnaisance, and destroying property, such as bunkers, machine guns, etc. Trench raids were often regarded as a means of asserting psychological dominance over the enemy. In reading the 20th Division's history this morning, they felt most success had been achieved when the Germans stopped patrolling No-man's Land. If I had to guess, my instinct would be that the Australians were the most feared by the Germans. Their notion of 'peaceful penetration' always tickles me, though the term was used by non-Australian units as well. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 The 20th Division did a lot of raiding during the war, the 6th K.S.L.I. carried out a very successful one on the night of 29th June 1916. And on a smaller scale it was always patroling No Man's Land, my great uncle (Sid) was in the 6th, and a old friend of his told my dad that Sid prefured (spelling looks wrong) to be out in No Man's Land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Yes, trench raids/no-man's land appealed to some individuals. They would often volunteer for formal raids. Some were recognised as 'specialists' and could pretty much come and go into this domain as much they pleased. The Germans used stormtroopers for trench raids. This could prove unpopular as they would come into a segment of the trenches, carry out the raid and then disappear to more comfortable rear areas, leaving the infantrymen to take the retaliatory artillery reprisal from the allies. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Certainly isnt the 17th Manchesters. They seem never to have carried one out. The closest they came was, as recorded in the war diary, a raid that "due to unforeseen circumstances had to be cancelled". I have often wondered whether the fact it was New Year's Eve had anything to do with it John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Assessing "who was best" must be very subjective. What does one mean by "best"? A raid which goes in causing a lot of disruption and casualties to the enemy, or a quiet one which successfully carries out some vital reconnaisance without causing any noise or disturbance? Or a quick dash across, grab a prisoner and back to your own trenches? The claim for the first raids of the war was made by the Indian Brigade. Indians proved to be very adapt at this sort of operation, and were good at close quarter fighting. Some hill tribes including the Garwhalis, Pathans and Gurkhas gained a fearsome reputation with the Germans for the blood thirsty way they dealt with their victims; a reputation which continued to haunt the Germans in the Second World War during the Italian Campaign, and the very mention that the Gurkhas were coming scared the Agentinians during the Falklands War. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 To my last post I would also add Sikhs to the list of fearsome raiders. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 2nd Bn. Sherwood Foresters, April 1917. " April was a month of many excitements, and both sides raided or tried to raid each other in turn. On April 5th, about 5.30 a.m. a party of Germans estimated 30 to 50 attempted to rush the Southern Crater......... On the 15th the Foresters tried to get their own back, " About 3 p.m. on the 16th, Lt.Cowgill and 2nd Lt. Jackson were on patrol with a party of 10 men; they entered the German Lines south of th Hairpin Craters, and having waited in vain till nearly dawn for any party of Germans that might arrive, they attempted to return by the gap through which they had come. While between two thick belts of barbed wire they were discovered and challenged by the enemy. Lt. Cowgill, with the object of covering the withdrawal of his men by cowing the enemy, ordered them to throw their bombs and then dash back through the wire. The Germans replied vigorously with about fifty bombs and some rifle fire. Our party were enabled to get through the wire by the light of half a dozen very lights thrown up by the Germans. The officers had got clear when they found L/Cpl Squires, who was with them had fallen badly wounded in the wire. Lt. Cowgill and 2nd Lt. Jackson at once turned back and brought him in, in spite of heavy bomb and machine gun fire. The had some difficulty doing this as he was very weak from the loss of blood. Levi Squires died of his wounds in a London Hospital and is buried in our Village churchyard. ( His Father Harry R.E. was K.I.A. aged 50 years in March 1918, defence of Albert.) " 2nd. Lt. Shaw and 9 men went out at about the same time to cut out a German Sentry Post on the North of Hairpin Crater. Can someone please tell me where the above action took place ? my memory seems to have deserted me, I can only plead old age. Cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Hi Cliff The 6th Div. had taken over the line from the Double Crassier at Loos extending northwards for six miles in early March 1917. Due to the advance at Arras, the right wing of 6th Div., held by 16th Bde. advanced its line a little between 13th - 15th April. I could not find Hairpin Craters but there are several craters near Hulluch and all the German trenches in that sector start with an H ? and the 71st Bde would have been in the Div.,s centre or on left flank. Hope that helps. Just to add the 6th Div. liked to raid. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 Cliff just found the following in 1st K.S.L.I. war diary - 23rd April The Battalion was placed under orders of 71st Bde. and relieved 2nd Sherwood Foresters in front line of St. Elie, between Border Redoubt and north of the Hulloch Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hodges Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 The claim for the first raids of the war was made by the Indian Brigade. Indians proved to be very adapt at this sort of operation, and were good at close quarter fighting. Some hill tribes including the Garwhalis, Pathans and Gurkhas gained a fearsome reputation with the Germans for the blood thirsty way they dealt with their victims... The first trench raid is indeed generally regarded as having been carried out (with good success) near Ypres on the night of 9/10 November 1914 by the 39th Garwhal Rifles of the Indian Corps. By the way, I have always found John Keegan's comments on raids quite extraordinary. He seems to regard them as 'murderous' and 'barbaric' - "An introduction of tribal military practise into the civilised warfare of western armies" (p198 The First World War) - which seems an overstatement or highly traditional military values at best. An interesting issue though. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Annette, My greatful thanks for your information which adds more daylight to my research, what we amateurs would do without your expertise. Kind regards, Cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 By the way, I have always found John Keegan's comments on raids quite extraordinary. He seems to regard them as 'murderous' and 'barbaric' - "An introduction of tribal military practise into the civilised warfare of western armies" (p198 The First World War) - which seems an overstatement or highly traditional military values at best. An interesting issue though. Paul I think this is an interesting issue. From reading first hand accounts, you realise that close hand-to-hand fighting in trenches, shell holes, strongpoints, villages, etc could really bring out an almost animal instinct. Grappling with your enemy face-to-face, having to strangle, bayonet, knife or club him seems psychologically quite quite different from firing at someone several hundred yards away. This type of close fighting is not unique to WW1 at all, though for me it was reading the accounts of veterans that really opened my eyes to the impact. It was the one type of experience that my grandfather absolutely could not bring himself to recount. What makes trench raids even more difficult for me is that some men chose to go on these raids. For some, this would have reflected a taste for this type of warfare IMHO. I shudder at this thought but recognise that it is definitely not unique to WW1! Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 I agree, 'best' is pretty hard to define as every raid would have had different objectives. However, some units or divisions may have been perceived to be 'better' at raiding than others because they were more aggressive than other units i.e. they actively sought to dominate no mans land by raiding. (This links to the points Tim Travers makes in The Killing Ground about the 'cult of the offensive'.) There is a useful chapter on trench raids in Michael Occleshaw's 'Armour Against Fate - British Military Intelligence in WW1' (pub 1989). It would probably also be worth checking out Tony Ashworth's 'Trench Warfare 1914-18' and Eric Leed's 'No Mans Land'. The definitive work on Trench raids may be in the offing (tho not for a while yet). John Lee (author of the most recent bio of Sir Ian Hamilton) is working on a book/PhD on trench raids and has something like 1,200 raids logged on his database. He does a talk on this on the WFA circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 With regards to Trench Raids one disturbing fact of which I was not aware of is the removal of any identification I quote from an Op Order of the 16th Bn London Irish Regiment in which the Battalion took part in an operation on the 7th April 1917 " Assulting troops were, prior to the raid, to divest themselves of letters, identity discs, regimental badges and buttons, but every man is to carry in his right hand breast pocket a slip of paper bearing his name, rank and regimental number". No wonder there was great difficulty in identifing casualties if this was the normal practice. On this so called trench raid which commenced at 20:03 hrs after a bombardment by our own artillery which commenced at 19:30 hrs. The Battalion was recalled at 20:40hrs by which time out of the 500 which commenced the raid nearly 200 were either killed or wounded. When back in their lines they reorganised and resumed their origional positions. A 02:30hrs 8th April they relieved by 15th Bn London Regt. 2 Officers and 40 OR's were killed 4 Officers and 139 OR's were missing. Has any other Pal found that the removal of ID disc's, buttons and regimental badges before a raid the normal practice. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Sorry I got my brothers mixed up Re: my last post, the unit concerned was the 18th Battalion London Irish Regiment. Ooops John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Has any other Pal found that the removal of ID disc's, buttons and regimental badges before a raid the normal practice. I'm not sure if I qualify as a Pal but this is my understanding. This practice is described in many of the accounts of trench raids that I have read. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 I have come across accounts of the removal of all identity items prior to a raid from both the German side as well as when the British raided the German lines along the Somme prior to July 1st, 1916. The Germans had the bodies but no means to identify what unit or what name or rank the person had. However messages sent across after raids such as those placed on placards set up on the trench parapets sometimes asked after the fate of certain officers or men, thereby giving the identities away anyway. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard_Lewis Posted 1 January , 2004 Share Posted 1 January , 2004 In November 1916 members of the Swansea Bn raided the German High Command Redoubt with great success. The tactical plan was later used by (from memory) 4th Army as a 'how to do it' illustration for other units. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I know each nation likes to blow its own trumpet but from what I've read I get the impression that it was the Canadians that developed the idea of the trench raid and expanded it into battalion (or in some instances larger) raids. Although they did have at least one disastrous before the attack on Vimy Ridge. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Geoff, the Canadians were very active at Vimy Ridge with pre-offensive raids over a period of several months, I read somewhere that they suffered as many casualties in these raids as they did in during the main attack. As has been said earlier in this thread it was the Indians who made the first raid of the war on the Western Front on the night of 9/10 november 1914. The Indian Corps are also credited with the first use of trench mortars - a very crude home-made affair invented by Indian engineers. I think it was Robert Graves who wrote that there is no other word in the English language that could intantly produce such a sinking feeling of dread as "raid". They were generally loathed by officers and soldiers alike in that they thoroughly stirred up the enemy and achieved nothing other than a high butcher's bill. Men were prepared to risk their lives if they could see a tangible objective, but felt bitter when the objective was, as was often the case, wooly. In spite of this there was usually no shortage of volunteers, but I think men did so more out of a grim realisation that someone had to do it, and if that was the case why not them? If they didn't volunteer it only meant that some other poor b*gger would have to do it. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Has any other Pal found that the removal of ID disc's, buttons and regimental badges before a raid the normal practice. John In 'Eye Deep in Hell', Ellis says..... 'Just before the raid began the men prepared themselves. They had to divest themselves of all equipment that might either hinder movement or reveal the identity of their unit. Collar flashes and regimental buttons were taken off..... Pay books and all personal letters were left behind, though the raiders were allowed to carry a small slip of paper giving their Army number, so that the Germans could notify the Red Cross of their fate if the need arose.' John, It could be taken, from the line '...When back in their lines they reorganised and resumed their origional positions. ' ,that they had made the raid from another units position. Especially as 500 seems an awful lot for a straightforward Trench Raid. Ellis says that 'A typical raiding party would comprise about 30 men, often volunteers, from one Company.' Tim, Ellis also says 'Many felt the raids had no particular strategic value, but were merely the product of Staff jealousies, a search for prestige bought with other men's blood.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 I have a copy of the origional Op Order No 155 by Lt Col D.B. Parry Co of the 18 Bn London Regt. (London Irish Rifles) and it quite specificly says Details of the assulting troops 4 Companies The London Irish and 1 Officer and 10 OR's of the Royal Engineers. Also having written out the War Diary verbatim to put in my family history which I will attach. And this was called a minor operation it included Artillery support, Royal Flying Corps support and a mine being blown on Hill 60. See attached War Diary Regards John Albert_Francis_Gains.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Hi John Going by the date and large scale of this raid, it could be that it took place to make the German think an attack on a larger scale would that place in Ypres area to draw reserves away from the intended area of attack-Arras ? Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Hi Annette There were diversionary raids timed to take place at the same time as this raid was in progress, because of the RE attachment and their tasks included destroying Machine Gun and Mortar emplacements also dugouts plus the taking of prisoners which makes me think that this was no diversionery raid. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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