Manchester regiment mesopotamia

[Guest Desmond6]

I note that elsewhere on the site there is information on the Basra memorial. When this was shown on TV earlier in the year it prompted an aunt of mine to search in the attic for a number of items relating to her uncles (who were named Price) because she had always been told that they had been killed in an ambush while serving with the 2nd Batt Manchester regiment in Mesopotamia.

I have since checked the CWG site and confirmed that there were two men named Price killed \died on service in this region in 1920.

They were Prvts. J. Price 3513402 D. 24 July 1920 (aged 20) and Prvt. W. Price 85122 D. 24 May 1920.

I understand that on one of these dates an officer of the Manchesters won a VC. Does anyone know the name of the action? have they a description or access to information? Unless ther has been a mistake in the dates (and I doubt it) it would seem that the two brothers did not die in the same action.

My aunt was told that they had been bathing when they were surprised by 'Turks' ?? and (as family legend goes) cut to bits. Gruesome eh!

Both these men were from Ballymena, Northern Ireland but joined the Manchesters when their mother remarried and moved to England. Their sister (my wife's Great Aunt Alice) is still alive aged 97 (?). My aunt has little hand sewn hankies and postcards sent home to Northern ireland by the brothers. They are superb articles with union jack and shamrock insignia with the legend 'From the Harryville boys' on them. (This was the district of Ballymena where the family lived).

Just a further point: What do you make of this story? My mother's Uncle - Andy Thompson - served with (I believe) the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers at Gallipoli. My late father told me that Andy was very bitter about the Turks. The story goes that British (Aussie, NZ etc) soldiers made pacts with each other that if they were wounded and could not be brought in from no mans land then a surviving friend would shoot them as an act of mercy. Andy apparently told my father that Turks would creep out into no mans land and mutilate wounded brits so that their screams and calls for help would demoralise their comrades and prhaps attract some into the open for snipers.

Any opinions on this one?

[John_Hartley]

Here's the citation for the VC won by Capt George Stuart Henderson

On 24 July 1920 near Hillah, Mesopotamia, Captain Henderson led his company in three charges against the enemy who had opened fire from the flank. At one time when the situation was extremely critical, the captain, by sheer pluck and coolness, steadied his command and prevented his company from being cut up. During the second charge he fell wounded but refused to leave his command and just as the company reached the trench, he was again wounded, this time mortally

[Guest Pete Wood]

Captain George Stuart Henderson is the VC winner you want.

It happened on the 24th July 1920, and Henderson was killed on that day also.

The Gazette entry was on the 29th October 1920. You should be able to see it if you visit

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSe...e=0&Referer=WW1

Here is Henderson's CWGC details, which contains the citation:

Name: HENDERSON, GEORGE STUART

Initials: G S

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Captain

Regiment: Manchester Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 26

Date of Death: 24/07/1920

Awards: VC, DSO and Bar, MC

Additional information: Five times Mentioned in Despatches. Son of Robert and Mary Henderson, of Mount Hooly, Jedburgh, Roxburghshire.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 31 and 64

Cemetery: BASRA MEMORIAL

Citation: An extract from "The London Gazette", dated 29th Oct., 1920, records the following:-"For most conspicuous bravery and self-sacrifice. On the evening of the 24th July, 1920, when about fifteen miles from Hillah (Mesopotamia), the Company under his command was ordered to retire. After proceeding about 500 yards a large party of Arabs suddenly opened fire from the flank, causing the Company to split up and waver. Regardless of all danger, Capt. Henderson at once reorganised the Company, led them gallantly to the attack and drove off the enemy. On two further occasions this officer led his men to charge the Arabs with the bayonet and forced them to retire. At one time, when the situation was extremely critical and the troops and transport were getting out of hand, Capt. Henderson by sheer pluck and coolness, steadied his command, prevented the Company from being cut up, and saved the situation. During the second charge he fell wounded, but refused to leave his command, and just as the Company reached the trench they were making for he was again wounded. Realising that he could do no more, he asked one of his N.C.O s to hold him up on the embankment, saying ' I'm done now, don't let them beat you'. He died fighting." [/color]

Henderson was born in East Gordon, Berwick, on 5 December 1893

The VC is, I believe, on display at the 1 Kings Regiment Museum.

Sorry for repeating some of your info, John. We started posting at the same time....

[michaeldr]

Just a further point: What do you make of this story? My mother's Uncle - Andy Thompson - served with (I believe) the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers at Gallipoli. My late father told me that Andy was very bitter about the Turks. The story goes that British (Aussie, NZ etc) soldiers made pacts with each other that if they were wounded and could not be brought in from no mans land then a surviving friend would shoot them as an act of mercy. Andy apparently told my father that Turks would creep out into no mans land and mutilate wounded brits so that their screams and calls for help would demoralise their comrades and prhaps attract some into the open for snipers.

Any opinions on this one?

Desmond,

I have never come across anything like the story which you report. Several writers mention the screams of the wounded men, but then wounded men did scream. And not just from the pains of their wounds but from thirst too which in Gallipoli's summer heat was a great problem to add to their pain. Another problem would be lying out there unable to move with shrapnel going off overhead and no cover to turn to. Many men must have been wounded a second, third or more times and in parts of their bodies which would normally be safe if for instance standing in a trench.

What has been mentioned is the reaction of men who see for the first time the wounds made by modern rifle and machine gun fire; many thought that the enemy was using dum-dum or exploding ammunition. It was only after incidents like the truce at Anzac that they realised that their own guns made the same mess of the Turk

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Desmond7]

I reckon you've hit the nail on the head. It must have been a totally horrific close combat environment to live in week after wek with the associated smells etc. Maybe 'Uncle Andy' heard one of the trench rumours which seemed to spread like wildfire around such battlefields and, like so many others, took it to be the truth. Ad to that the understandable gulf in culture betwen the two foes and it's hardly surprising that they could believe each other to be capable of barbarity on occasions.

[Smith 565]

Returning this rather old thread to its original topic......

There is an article on the Dix Noonan and Webb (auctioneers) site re the 2nd Manchesters at Hillah. (www.dnw.co.uk/dnw/medals/InterMagMedals.htm) This should lead you to something called 'Interformative', where there are a number of articles posted. There is one by Donald Hall on the 2nd Manchesters.

Desmond's man is recorded in the casualty list as killed. Medal to him is named to 'Prince'. I'm sure I have seen it offered for sale at some time.

Of course by this time 'Mespot' was Iraq, which we had formed out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire (shrewd move - eh?). Desmond's poor relative wasn't 'cut to pieces' by the Turks, but by Arab tribesman. There is no direct evidence that I know of, but the lack of Manchesters taken prisoner who were wounded leads some to believe that the wounded were killed by the tribesmen.

I have researched Edmund Allonby, a L/Cpl who was KIA at Hillah. He served in the Great War (8th Reserve and 1st Battalions), then transferred to the 2nd Battalion, probably in the summer of 1919. He had an elder brother who was killed on the Somme. Apart from that the family is something of a mystery, as I can't trace Edmund's birth certificate and he doesn't seem to appear on the 1901 census.

Interestingly, Edmund's BWM, VM and GSM Iraq are accompanied by a memorial plaque and scroll, although technically I suppose the campaign was not part of the 'Great War for Civilisation'.

Anyone know of similar plaques?

Geoff

(Apologies for the lack of a hyperlink - technology has beaten me again!)

[Guest Desmond6]

geoff - thanks for additional info. I'd sorted a lot of this out with a separate posting over 'plaques' - I forget the title! There's been a twist since ...

Manchester Aunt was visiting recently and she put me straight.

Yes, a Price boy did die in Meso. but family story this side of Irish sea had two brothers slaughtered etc ...

Turns out that Iraqi Price was on his own in service.

Re: The brothers scenario. It seems yhe 'two brothers' were serving in 1914-18 and they 'met up for the first time since they joined up' at some form of rest station which had 'bathing facilities' of some description. She says it was 'bombed' and one was killed in that incident. I know this is all 'memory based' and liable to wide inaccuracy but I'm still working on it. You've been very helpful.

Could I could solve a lot of problems by seeing rear of 'death pennies' ? I'm sure I could but when they were received another long-dead relative mounted them on wooden surrounds and to tamper with them now might be akin to investigating the Shroud of Turin! It wouldn't go down too well so I'm picking up courage to ask them.

We all talk about memories on this forum. It goes to show that even directly affected families have often 'mixed up' details of what actually happened. Maybe it's a reflection of the unwillingness to talk about such incidents in the immediate aftermath of the war itself? Thus the truth gets mixed up over the years. This story is a perfect example of how family stories can lead you up a twisty path.

Thanks again, sorry for being so late in posting back.