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Remembered Today:

Worse Formation in WW1


PBI

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Have just been informed by a Social "Historian" that the 54th Div was comprised to use his words,of "Useless" Battalions of the British Army !!, to back up this claim,could any Forum Pals either say Yey or Nay..i feel deeply insulted as my G.Father served with the Finsbury Rifles at Suvla Bay,where He was very badly Wounded,and to top it all He also contracted Dysentry at Mudros.He saw front Line Service in all 3 Battles of Gaza,and took part in the Liberation of the Holy Land from the Ottoman Empire.Sorry to Rant,but said "Historians" Parental Lineage ,consists of Conscientous Objecters,who later moved on in to CND,and are now involved in weaving Rug Mats for Peace in the East.Sod It,I will give Him a Dig at the next Real Ale Meeting !!!!!!!!!!!!!...were there Battalions,Bigades,Divs,that were known not to be that great in the Front Line ?,and if so could the Div Commanders dispense with their services,and fob them off onto another Army Corps. PS the "Historian" chucked away a lot of my G.Dads Photos,and also SOLD Gt.Uncles Death Plaque,Medals,And Scroll of Commemoration,as He Said that He Didnt want His Children to see the Vestiges of War,and its Glorification.. :angry2:

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PBI.

Don't let him get to you, he sounds like a bit of a "Plonker" Just think of your signature, that just about covers him.

Cheers Rob.

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"the "Historian" chucked away a lot of my G.Dads Photos,and also SOLD Gt.Uncles Death Plaque,Medals,And Scroll of Commemoration,as He Said that He Didnt want His Children to see the Vestiges of War,and its Glorification.. "

Self-righteous prat...

No-one on here is guilty of the "glorification" of war.

Most are honouring the memory of a generation when attitudes to war were very different, when many had no choice but to go to war, when many young lives were lost in terrible conditions, the quiet heroism of ordinary men. Many are also saying, I suspect, "there but for the grace of God.......

As for "Didnt want His Children to see the Vestiges of War", learning, reading etc about WW1 must be one of the most powerful lessons for "our children" as to the horrors of war and why we should do everything we can to avoid it.

I suppose by the same logic he also stops his children from watching/reading about the effects of smoking/eating the wrong foods/binge drinking/not looking before crossing the road etc for fear of his kids seeng the "vestiges of" smoking too much etc. We wouldn't want to "glorify" smokers/drunks/ the obese and road casualties now would we????

"my G.Father served with the Finsbury Rifles at Suvla Bay,where He was very badly Wounded,and to top it all He also contracted Dysentry at Mudros.He saw front Line Service in all 3 Battles of Gaza,and took part in the Liberation of the Holy Land from the Ottoman Empire."

Sounds like bit of a hero to me - honour his memory and be proud of him.

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Don't let him get to you, he is not worth it mate as he is a 'worthless' individual. He obviously has never heard of the saying "learn from history or relive it's mistakes". I would never seek to glorify war as it full of sorrow for most people, I know my Granny suffered dreadfully over the death of her wee brother Charlie (see my signature).

My Grandfather was not a man who condoned violence but I bet he would give this idiot a blow where it hurts. :wacko: I hope he chokes on his muesli (cos I know he will eat it)

I for one cherish the memories of these men and what they gave up willingly for us, and I am sure you do to.

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Mate,

I concur this bloke seams the type to think Anzac Day gloryfies war instead of remembering all that served and those that failed to return.

S,B

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said "Historians" Parental Lineage ,consists of Conscientous Objecters,who later moved on in to CND,and are now involved in weaving Rug Mats for Peace in the East

I see no problem with that. It's a pity that rather more people in the world have not stood up against war in the past. We might all be better off and not constantly on the edge of oblivion coming from somewhere over the eastern horizon. But back to your main point: on what evidence has your man based his tirade against 54th Division? Ask him to back it up.

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Have just been informed by a Social "Historian" that the 54th Div was comprised to use his words,of "Useless" Battalions of the British Army

Seeing as he does not want his family to "Historian" chucked away a lot of my G.Dads Photos,and also SOLD Gt.Uncles Death Plaque,Medals,And Scroll of Commemoration,as He Said that He Didnt want His Children to see the Vestiges of War,and its Glorification perhaps you should remind him that it is disrespectful and those with apathy for the sacrifice that help to continue war, we learn from our mistakes.

I have been accused in the past of attempting to 'rank' the divisions, this I do in an attempt to see how the learning curve evolved as well as to see who performed the best. I feel your chap just wants to put you down and thus the men of the division.

Cure...put him on his ****. Or alternativley consult the mothersite, learn of the actions thye participated in, get your facts together and then when you meet next, throw all the facts at him and see if he has actually took the time to investigate and back up his arguement. Then remind him how calous he has been in destroying the vestiges of a mans sacrifice so he can talk tripe.

regards

Arm

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also SOLD Gt.Uncles Death Plaque,Medals,And Scroll of Commemoration

My god just seen this, not to rightous that he sold them then. Made his two pence out of the sacrifice didnt he!

Arm

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Cure...put him on his ****.

The real benefit of this approach is that if he really is a pacifist then he will turn the other cheek, thereby giving you an another opportunity at a free pop. The man sounds like an ignorant p****.

As someone who is very much a pacifist by inclination I do get hacked off by people like this giving us all a bad name. I am against war , not the men who were sacrificed by those who start them. He sounds like the type of man who sees the death of a serviceman in Iraq or Afghanistan as another statistic to back his views rather than a shattered set of lives.

Andy

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Whilst not sharing this man's views, I respect his right to them and to do what he wishes with his own property.

Are we really so niaive to forget that not everyone shares our interests? And to suggest violence as a way to deal with the issues raised is farcical.

Relax!

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Whilst reading through a most excellent book 'The ANZACs, Gallipoli to the Western Front' by Peter Pedersen. The following quote appeared whilst talking about the defence of Amiens:

"The 61st Division counterattacked in the meantime. By 1918, the 61st which had been carved up with the 5th Australian Division at Fromelles, 'reckoned it had been unlucky at everything it had attempted and called itself the Sixty-worst'

Now by no means attempting to shame a whole division, surely on marching in to his new unit within the 61st, a young Private wouldn't have much of a warm feeling!

A quick search shows that the 61st contained the following Battalions, and more specifically here: http://www.1914-1918.net/61div.htm

182nd (2nd Warwickshire) Brigade

2/5th Battalion, the Royal Warwickshire Regiment (disbanded February 1918)

2/6th Battalion, the Royal Warwickshire Regiment

2/7th Battalion, the Royal Warwickshire Regiment

2/8th Battalion, the Royal Warwickshire Regiment (disbanded February 1918)

2/8th Battalion, the Worcestershire Regiment (from 183rd Bde. February 1918)

183rd (2nd Gloucester and Worcester) Brigade

The brigade contained the following battalions until February 1918 when most of them were disbanded.

2/4th (City of Bristol) Battalion, the Gloucestershire Regiment

2/6th Battalion, the Gloucestershire Regiment

2/7th Battalion, the Worcestershire Regiment

2/8th Battalion, the Worcesters (to 182nd Bde. February 1918)

Between February and June 1918 the Brigade contained the following battalions.

1/9th (Highlanders) Battalion, the Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)

1/5th (Buchan and Formartin) Battalion, the Gordon Highlanders

1/8th (The Argyllshire) Battalion, the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

From May 1918 the following battalions joined the Brigade.

1st Battalion, the East Lancashire Regiment

9th (Service) Battalion, the Northumberland Fusiliers

11th (Service) Battalion, the Suffolk Regiment

184th (2nd South Midland) Brigade

2/5th Battalion, the Gloucestershire Regiment

2/4th Battalion, the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

2/1st Buckinghamshire Battalion, the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (disbanded February 1918)

2/4th Battalion, the Royal Berkshire Regiment

Dave

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I was reading a mystery novel last week, and the protagonists were driving down a California highway when one noticed the bumper sticker on the car in front of them. It read "War Is Not The Answer", which caused the novel's hero to comment, "Well, it stopped slavery in America and the Nazis in Germany". Something to consider...

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Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that this guy is entitled to his views and opinion,I noted however that he was not slow to capitalise on the sacrifice of others by selling the heirlooms. I hope he had the good grace to donate the money to a worthwhile charity and did not line his pockets with the proceeds.

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the Last Time i Clapped Eyes on my Shyster of a relative was when He turned up at My Dads Funeral,i felt like giving Him a Good Thrashing,but i didnt think it either the Time or the Place.I managed to get the Medals and Scroll replaced with Copies,but not so the Plaque. :( .I have tried to Collar said relative,but He is very,very,elusive.But He cant hide forever methinks.

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quote from Chris "what evidence has your man based his tirade against 54th Division? Ask him to back it up."

It will be interesting to see the evidence for the prosecution, if they can find any that is.

In the mean time, if the 54th were so bad then,

* why didn't Allenby let them go to France in the spring of 1918?

* why didn't he de-gum their Maj-Gen?

* why did he leave all the original units in place and not

[a] spread them amongst the other divisions

or insert new units into their number so as to stiffen them up

Allenby was not known as 'The Bull' for nothing

and if he had been dissatisfied with the 54th then I am sure that we would have heard about it echoing down the years.

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It will be interesting to see the evidence for the prosecution, if they can find any that is.

In the mean time, if the 54th were so bad then,

* why didn't Allenby let them go to France in the spring of 1918?

* why didn't he de-gum their Maj-Gen?

* why did he leave all the original units in place and not

[a] spread them amongst the other divisions

or insert new units into their number so as to stiffen them up

Allenby was not known as 'The Bull' for nothing

and if he had been dissatisfied with the 54th then I am sure that we would have heard about it echoing down the years.

I think it is because they got 'bad press' on Gallipoli - mainly to do with the 1/5th Norfolk's and 8th Hampshires. Basically the Sandringham Company of the former and a company of the latter.

This does not though put them in the 'Bad Division' category.

Some Divisions were seens as 'Trench holders' and others 'Attackers'

It is probable that like the 46th Div some people did not like TF Divisions.

stevem

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Steve,

"I think it is because they got 'bad press' on Gallipoli"

Some may indeed have been misled into thinking that, but in my opinion they are mistaken. The 54th did not go to Gallipoli as a 'Division' in the true sense of the term; for a start, where was their artillery? The problem at Gallipoli was not this Division, its commander or its men, but rather their handling by the General(s) in command higher up the chain.

In April 1918 the 52nd and the 74th Divs, plus 24 other Battalions, and 9 Yeomanry regiments left the EEF for France [together with 5½ heavy batteries and 5 machine gun companies]

During July and the first week of August 1918 a further 10 battalions were replaced (disbanded) the personnel used as reinforcements.

None of this major upheaval affected the 54th Div.

My point is that it seems to indicate that a hard task master like Allenby was satisfied with the 54th, did not want to loose it or break it up. And in the end they formed part of his winning team

regards

Michael

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Some may indeed have been misled into thinking that, but in my opinion they are mistaken. The 54th did not go to Gallipoli as a 'Division' in the true sense of the term; for a start, where was their artillery? The problem at Gallipoli was not this Division, its commander or its men, but rather their handling by the General(s) in command higher up the chain.

I agree and the 11th Div also went without artillery but they were seen as a good Division. One Company of Hampshires were sent back to the beach. For this reason the whole Division was seen as weak. It was no doubt unfair to call Divisions such as 46th and 54th weak. It does though give people such as this 'social historian' something to grab on to. Especially if they have read little on the subject.

stevem

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I was called useless a lot when I was a boy and thats not true-err I think. Still tthis lettuce weaving in law does not deserve to lace those Regiments boots. I`fully expect this guy to be slating the soldiers when they return(not to their homes as a lot don't get one when their time is up) as they do in the wonderful Guradian and Independent and trying to get them indicted for War crimes as they sit catching bullets in a dusty chodbin. I can't even be bothered to write any more about the twit but I certainly don't remember any veterans having anything nasty to say about the merits of their comrades. Have loads of corporate fast food delivered to his house bet he'd love that. ha ha

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:D:D
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PBI

I can't answer the original question you posed, but I think I know a man who can.

Last year, Peter Simkins did a talk for WFA branches about "successful" divisions during the Battle of the Somme. His research was based on analysis of the number of attacks undertaken by battalions of each division and "scoring" it as to whether it was full successful, a partial success or a failure. It's perhaps the only logical way of answering such a question.

Unfortunately (and unusually) he managed to make a potentially interesting subject extremely boring and his graphics were awful. I may have nodded off for large chunks of the presentation but certainly can't recall who was what.

John

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the Last Time i Clapped Eyes on my Shyster of a relative was........

There is something in the old maxim, 'you can choose your friends..................'

How can anyone call themselves a Historian, without mentioning war ?.

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