Rifle Grenades

[brindlerp]

Quote from "The Seventh Division 1914-1918' by C. T. Atkinson.

page 129

"On both sides snipers were active, but there was less general rifle fire, the use of rifle grenades tending to discourage the enemy's activities in this line and to keep their snipers in hand."

When were rifle grenades invented/first used and who made them and where?

"though as a rule the main work of worrying the enemy was left to the artillery and to the trench-mortars which were now available, though still in experimental stage and non too accurate."

What is the history of the trench-mortar, is it the foreunner of modern day field mortars?

Regards

Richard

[Robert Dunlop]

What is the history of the trench-mortar, is it the foreunner of modern day field mortars?

Mortars have a long history, dating back to the 15th Century according to some military historians. The light-weight infantry mortar was developed by the Germans in circa 1908, following observations made in the Russo-Japanese War.

The German 170cm (6.6") minenwerfer entered production prior to 1914 and at the outset of the war, there were more than 100 medium minenwerfers and 44 heavy minenwerfers. Mortars were the domain of the pioneers and only really started to be used in late 1914.

The British also faced a second type of mortar, developed in 1912 by Krupp. This fired the 'toffee apple' projectile, a large round bomb with a trailing 'stick'.

Although the British knew about German mortar development, it took the introduction of these into trench warfare before an urgent request was received. Copies of German minenwerfers were available by Christmas 1914. A whole range of devices were designed. The French even relocated old cast iron and brass mortars on new bases.

Meanwhile, the Germans rapidly increased production and the variety of minenwerfers, including: 76mm, 170mm, 180mm, 240mm, and 250mm.

In 1915, Wilfred Stokes began developed the smooth-bore mortar that bears his name. The original was 3", which was also adopted by the French Army. A later 4" mortar was used by the Special Brigade for smoke and gas attacks. The Newton 6" mortar provided a heavier mortar. The French 240mm mortar was adopted by the British as the 9.45" (quarter-to-ten) mortar. It had the ability to penetrate deep defenses, as witnessed by the effects on a German bunker and telephone exchange in the attack on Montauban.

No discussion of British WW1 mortars can be complete without mentioning Livens projectors. These where 8" smooth-bore tubes of varying lengths, depending on the range required. They were buried in the ground in large numbers, each one mounted on a base plate, and then simultaneously detonated electrically. The primary projectile delivered large quantities of gas, usually phosgene, on German targets behind the line. The sudden arrival of tons of gas often caused significant casualties, overwhelming even the best respirators. The boom of firing was often masked by MG and/or artillery barrages. A bright flash could often be seen, giving some warning. This was masked by firing the Livens projectors tangentially onto the target.

See:

http://www.ga98tew.eurobell.co.uk/vail/livens.htm

http://www.aeragon.com/o/me/me06.html

for photographs.

Robert

Burning oil projectiles were also tried but did not seem to have been used much.

[Robert Dunlop]

Further pics of Livens projectors and the resultant explosions on

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/messines.htm

Some pics of German minenwerfer:

http://www.ifrance.com/camassel/les_minenwerfer.htm

http://au.geocities.com/fortysecondbattali...lery-german.htm

Quite a nice history of the infantry mortar here:

http://riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/mortar/ndx.htm (note the characteristic 'lemon squeezers' worn by the WW1 New Zealand mortar crew in training)

Robert

[Guest Hussar]

Robert,

Thanks for some great links, particularly the Vail Diary

[Terry_Reeves]

Robert

You may be interested in the following which puts Sapper Vail's recollection in some doubt:

"Christmas Day (1915) was one of fine weather. There were no parades, but a party of of us were detailed to assist a certain Capt. Bellaires in matters relating to an ingenious gun he had invented. It was a bulky contrivance devised to fire a number of bombs simultaeneously, the propelling force being an explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen supplied in correct proportions from cylinders of these gases. This remarkable gun had four barrels, each of which could hold sixteen missiles of the Mills Bomb type, so that sixty-four of them could be thrown to burst in a confined area at a distance of about 300 yards. We conveyed the gun to some demonstration trenches, and man-handled it into position. Then we waited around while Bellaires discussed various problems with several officers. All this completed, we carried the gun out again, and made for home. As mere pawns in this game, we were quite content to do as we were told and leave the responsibility to others."

"....Two days later, we were on fatigue once more with Bellairs' gun. A longer journey this time took us to some open fields beyond Bethune. Having fixed the gun in position on a sort of firing range, we awaited the arrival of Staff Officers. They were abominbaly late, and so we hung around while Bellaires tested his apparatus and filled the explosion chamber with the gases removing the safety-pin from each Mills Bomb as a sergeant passed them to him, he slid sixteen bombs down each barrel and sighted the gun. At last there was a clatter of horses and riders as a batch of Staff galloped over the field and reined near us. The General dismounted, chatted with Bellairs, and examined the gun. The others remained on horseback, moving away somewhat to witness the spectacle while at the same time feeling safer, and the General peered into the barrels. The signal was given, and the gun went off. A shower of bombs hurtled through the air, and burst on their target. We all proceeded to see what the effects had been. The result did not appear to be devastating, and the General was obviously not impressed. Mounting, he spoke briefly to Bellaires, finishing with the terse comment, "Come back when you have something which will fire half a ton". Turning away, he quickly rode off, and his staff hurriedly followed. Bellairs looked depressed at such a summary dismissal. The gun was packed up, accessories and all, and we returned to Chickory. We were never asked again to give demonstrations, and shortly afterwards "Billy Bellaires" departed with his chauffeur, fur collar and gun."

Martin Sidney Fox, "Corporals All - With Special Brigade RE 1915-1919" Privately publshed 1965.

Fox was one of the original "Cpl's All" and later a 2Lt with the Brigade. A schoolteacher, he died in 1965 from a heart attack.

Terry Reeves

[brindlerp]

Many thanks Robert for the information and links regarding mortars.

Regarding rifle grenades, I have found this link:

http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/frontearly1915aim4.htm

"a rifle grenade is being fired by the man in the right foreground who is, in fact, the Commanding Officer, Lt Colonel Davidson, whose diary says that on the 20th March 1915, he went up to Trench 38 at Hill 60, inspected a new loophole that he had had made and and fired about 12 rifle grenades with a 'very fair degree of success'."

Does anyone have any history/information on this example of a rifle grenade.

Regards

Richard

[Robert Dunlop]

Not I. But Cron mentions in his book that one German division first received rifle grenades in February 1915.

Robert

[Robert Dunlop]

A little bit more history here:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/grenades.htm

Author mentions that Germans had rifle grenades before WW1 (I know that the Austrians were experimenting at one time with using rifles coupled together to fire mortar projectiles before the war). They abandoned the use of rifle grenades, while the British and French persisted. The Germans then belatedly returned to using them.

Robert

[Geoff Parker]

Richard

The first British Rifle Grenade was the No.3 introduced in February 1915, and

this was followed by several variants of British rifle grenades

No.3 mark II (similar to the original No.3 but without the clip to attach it to the

foresight of the SMLE)

No.17 (introduced March 1916)

No.20 (updated No.3 but without the vane - introduced February 1916)

No.22 (Newton Pippin - introduced March 1916)

No.23 (an updated version of the No.5 Mills bomb but with rod attached -

introduced June 1916)

No.24 (introduced June 1917)

No.25 (Sangster introduced for troop trails only and not adopted)

No.27 (Phosphorus - introduced December 1916)

No.30 (troop trials only and not adopted)

No.31/32/38 (signal grenades - introduced between February 17-Jan 18)

No.35 (introduced March 1918 and similar to No.20)

No.36 (Mills - updated No.23 and introduced August 1917 - This was not a

rodded grenade but had a gas check and was fired from the cup

discharger. This grenade continued in serivice throughout WW2)

No.37 (Phosphorus - introduced September 1917)

No.39 (Stuart pattern - introduced January 1918)

No.42/43 (signal grenades - introduced June 1918)

No.44 (Anti-tank greande - introduced July 1918)

I will post some photographs I took of my mates collection of 1/4 scale models

he made when I get back to work on Friday. Meantime check this site

http://www.inert-ord.net/rod02h/index.html

Geoff

[Stuart Brown]

This one has markings at the fore end as follows "GTL 11??4 ????". There is a small triangle on the brass segment.

I always thought that this was an early example?

[Max Poilu]

The grenade illustrated is a No.24 MK I - a simplified derivative of the No.3 (via the No.20). The manufacturer (GTL) is Gestetner of London. The date indicated cannot be correct - the first figure is the month of manufacture (11 = November) and the second would be the year. It cannot be a 4 as these were only introduced in 1917. The official dates of introduction and end of service of grenades can be slightly inaccurate as grenades often appeared before the date of official entry and were withdrawn from use long before the official end date. The triangle is a manufacturer's mark.

[Somme1916]

In 1915, Wilfred Stokes began developed the smooth-bore mortar that bears his name.  The original was 3", which was also adopted by the French Army. A later 4" mortar was used by the Special Brigade for smoke and gas attacks.

Richard,

The Stokes mortar tube would be very very familiar to any mortar man from WW2 to the present day. Also some aspects of the round would also be familiar, not the fuse end but the method of propellant & ranging.

Jon

[Stuart Brown]

The grenade illustrated is a No.24 MK I - a simplified derivative of the No.3 (via the No.20).

Giles,

Thank you for the information.

Further image added - will try again in natural light for better image.

Are the reproduced colour bands significant?

Stuart

[Max Poilu]

Hmmm...could be the lower figure is 17 (1917)? Must admit, that looks like a 4! The red band signifies the grenade has been filled (ie has an explosive or otherwise charge, regardless of the type of filling), the green band denotes the type of filling - in this case an explosive charge of Baratol, Trotyl (TNT ) or Amatol (used for No.24's). Pink signifies Ammonal or Alumatol. All high-explosives with much the same result...

[Stuart Brown]

Giles,

Once again thank you.

Additional image.

[Max Poilu]

That's clearer - G.T.L. No.24 (that's the 4!) and then the date ?/1917.

[Stuart Brown]

Giles,

Thank you.

Happy New Year.

[johnreed]

Please find the attached image.

John

[Geoff Parker]

Here is the photograph of 1/4 scale models that my mate made of the

official British grenades of WWI. The Rodded (rifle) grenades can be clearer

seen.

[Geoff Parker]

This is a close up of the No.3 and No.4 (Naval pattern)

[Geoff Parker]

This close up shows the No.20 MkII, No.22 Pippins, and No.23

[Geoff Parker]

This close up shows the No.24, No.25 Sangster (trials only) and the No.27

phosphorus.

[Geoff Parker]

This close up shows the No.30 (trials only), No.31 Signal grenade (32 and 38

identical except for markings), No.35 and No.36 with Gas Check.

[Geoff Parker]

This close up shows the No.39 (Steuart pattern) and the No.44 (anti-tank grenade)

[Geoff Parker]

This photograph is of the No.36 with gas check (right) and without (centre)

with a rodded No.23 (forground) from my collection. Unfortunately I do not

have a photographs of my other Rifle grenades.