trenchwalker Posted 25 December , 2003 Share Posted 25 December , 2003 as part of my reenacting hobby i am the number two as part of our gun team what we are trying to work out as the number 2 carried ammo and spares for the weapon as well as a spotter. WHAT WEAPON DID HE CARRY(IF ANY)? We have studied alot of pictures and films that shows no record of anything. many thanks mart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 Hi Martin, I have some photos of 2/Queens LG section, but won't be able to get hold of them until next week. Will have a look and post back, although I am sure he also carried a sidearm, rather than a SMLE. Others might be able to post something in the meantime, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 My assumption was that #2 carried a SMLE; but I think that might be based mostly on this photo of a team from the 27th Btn CEF. The description doesn't specifically state that these men are #2 and #3; as has been discussed before, the size of the LG section seems to have varied from what was on paper to what actually was in the field. Peter in Vancouver crediting Grants Militaria for the photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 Trench, The No.2 was armed as any other Infantryman, i.e SMLE and standard gear at least officially. The additions being he carried the spare parts bag (a fairly large haversack of web and leather straps) and a bucket with 4 magazines. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 I think ( ) Joe means a bucket like this, worn over each shoulder, with one pannier in front, one in rear, for a total of four pans. Although as I type this I think I've seen a photo of a canvas bucket that could hold about a dozen pans. That would be getting heavy . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 LEWIS MG No 2. If it assists Mart all the replies are correct to your query. WWI images show Lewis gun teams armed with webleys and SMLE's or in some cases both, so you cannot go wrong representing either. The Buckets referred to earlier were indeed just that and were used early on for carrying mags, (although some examples still show 1918 dates). However the mills skeleton Pouch mag set was the preferred 'hands free' option. Images show that ammo re-supply or carriage thereof was not just limited to the No 2 either. As always what the manual says and what occurred in real life are 2 diferent things. It seems machine gunners in the field may have had more or less the choice and one image of a post trench raid party portrays the No 1 with 2 webleys stuffed in his belt (must be Aussie or Canadian!) and the No 2 webley AND rifle! Hope that helps, and if you need any images pse ask - good luck! Mark Finneran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 Peter, Attached below is a picture of two different LG mag carriers (Buckets) dated 17 and 18. The Mills equipment you show was actually supposed to be worn with four panniers and put on like a vest (8 Magazines). SS194 (Oct 1917) has really good instructions, with photos, on how to use this type of rig. Before this rig was adopted SS 143 Instructions for the Training of Platoons for Offensive Action (Feb 1917 version) specified a Lewis Section carrying 30 Magazines (carried by 8 men). SS143 recommended that mags could bve carried using two normal Haversacks thrown over the shoulder two mags in front sack and three in back sack. The number of magazines increased as the war went on. Also authorized for Lewis sections were the Mchinegun Capes and gloves. These were authorized as early as GRO 1542 29 April 16 at the rate of 4 capes and 4 pairs of gloves per LG section. However, seeing these actually being used by Lewis teams is rare. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 No 1 with 2 webleys stuffed in his belt (must be Aussie or Canadian!) and the No 2 webley AND rifle! Hope that helps, and if you need any images pse ask - good luck! The image I posted of the team: do you think #1 has a Webley or a Colt automatic in his holster? Images, yes please, the more the merrier for me. You can email me a CDs worth and I'd be happy!! Peter in Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 SS194 (Oct 1917) has really good instructions, with photos, on how to use this type of rig. Also authorized for Lewis sections were the Mchinegun Capes and gloves. These were authorized as early as GRO 1542 29 April 16 at the rate of 4 capes and 4 pairs of gloves per LG section. However, seeing these actually being used by Lewis teams is rare. Joe, thanks again. Where would I find SS194, the PRO/NAC? Or could you post it up here (hint, hint, grovel?) What do you think the capes and gloves were supposed to protect? Was the cape for the gun or for the men? I would think I would want to be glove free to make clearing the jams as easy as possible. Grandad told the story (as did many I'm sure) of feverishly clearing mud out of the LG to get the blasted thing firing again, as grey hordes approached him and his mates. (He got it going again, thank goodness ) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 Peter, I can send SS194 to you. I'll scan and send or post. It's only about 4 pages. You should get it today or tomorrow. The gloves and Capes were for carrying and changing hot barrels etc. There was a previous thread where I posted a picture of a British made cape (it looks like a short vest with leather pieces on the shoulder).. This link may take you to the capes photos. http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5456&hl= Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 26 December , 2003 Share Posted 26 December , 2003 As Mark says, there are almost any number of combinations of equipment being worn by Lewis Gun crews. The Machine Gunners Waistcoat was an unpopular item which rapidly disappeared from use as most gunners found that an old sandbag gave just as much protection for the number 1 when carrying the hot gun over the shoulder. The number 1 often carried some basic spare parts but the number 2 had the proper spare parts bag. These were originally made totally from leather but later from leather and web. Sometimes the number 2 carried the long cleaning rod on a web pouch looped over the waistbelt but these must have been a real encumbrance and seem to disappear quickly. There are plenty of armourers tools for the Lewis still around but the Gun crews tools usually consisted of: a loading tool, a barrel mouthpiece spanner, a cylinder cleaning rod (for the piston chamer underneath the barrel) which had both a mop and wire brush attachment, an oil can and a spring balance for checking the tension on the cocking handle (ideally about 14-15lb). Various other spares which could be easily lost or broken were carried in the bag too. The bucket carriers preceeded the four-pouch harness and , therefore, the team was larger to carry enough ammunition. Norman Gladden describes the issue of the new harnesses in his book, 'Ypres'. He says that they were introduced just in time for the Battle of Menin Road Ridge which roughly ties in with the date of SS194. With each crew member being able to carry 8 x drums of 47 rounds instead of the previous 4 x drums there was a consequent reduction in the size of the crew. Generally speaking, if your re-enactment group portrays a unit before October 1917 you need to be carrying the bucket carriers - afterwards either will do. If any of you have a passion for Lewis Guns and live in the UK, keep an eye out for the February edition of Gun Mart - and start saving your money! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 27 December , 2003 Share Posted 27 December , 2003 For a first hand account of being a number 2 in a Lewis Gun team, read 'Voices of the Great War' and check out what Harry Patch has to say. He, as you probably know, is still alive and served with the DCLI. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchwalker Posted 27 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2003 HARRY PATCH OF COURSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Two of the blokes in my re enactment group one of them being the author of 'bringing uncle albert home' Dave Whithorn. Is trying to fine the 3 men killed in his LG section. So far we have found 1 but we think to othewr 2 will not be far from this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 27 December , 2003 Share Posted 27 December , 2003 Harry carried a revolver according to the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 30 December , 2003 Share Posted 30 December , 2003 We have just completed filming a two part programme for BBC1 about the last veterans. Various Chums portrayed some of the surviving veterans and some of Harry's stories were recreated including his story of shooting a German with his revolver and another about coming across a fatally wounded DCLI soldier who Harry thinks about shooting until the soldier dies. Later Harry also spoke of having a rifle too but I suspect that most soldiers had rifles and specialists could choose whether to take them into action or not. I was interested to hear about the idea of tracking down Harry's LG team as some researchers who have worked with Harry have never been able to find any matches of the men he named who may have been killed that day. The last assessment was that Harry had been wounded by the blast and assumed that his mates had all been killed but some may have been unwounded - or at worst wounded and sent to another dressing station. Either way, Harry never saw them again and assumed that they must all have been killed. It would be interesting to find out what did happen but I guess that's probably no longer possible. In 1998 I interviewed Frederick Castle, the last known Suffolk Regiment veteran of The Great War. Fred was a Lewis Gunner and I invited him to an exhibition I had staged for The Suffolk Regiment Museum in Bury St Edmunds. Fred enjoyed the exhibition but halfway round he said to me, "Do you have a Lewis Gun?" I said that we did and got the Museum gun out of the case. Fred asked for a .303 bullet and then stripped the whole gun (including barrel group!) in less than a minute. I said, "When did you last do that?" He replied, "Oh, it must have been in about February 1919"! Fred was an incredible man whose memory was completely lucid to the last. His story of his time with 1/5 Suffolk (TF) in Palestine was amazingly detailed - and pretty bloodthirsty in places too. I filmed his interview for the Regimental archive. It's a shame that television companies have no interest in the Palestine campaign as Fred's story was certainly worth using. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Fred asked for a .303 bullet and then stripped the whole gun (including barrel group!) in less than a minute. I said, "When did you last do that?" He replied, "Oh, it must have been in about February 1919"! I always thought the designer of the gun made a brilliant choice of what tool to use to strip the LG - the .303 bullet as Fred so aptly demonstrated. I would have loved to have seen that!! I wonder if any modern weapons have been designed this way . . . Peter in snowy Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 The pre-modified SA80 'The Rifle' was designed to be dismantled with a spade! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Can anyone investigate the following references; a) SS197 'Tactical Employment of Lewis Guns.' ( January, 1918 ) Describing the Lewis gun section, its composition and duties, the duties of Company Officers and the Lewis Gun Officer, and the handling of the Lewis gun section. General Routine Order No. 2414, dated 30th June, 1917, for carrying Lewis Gun Magazines. These may shed some verifiability on the question "Who carries what?" In the meantime, attached is the full image that Grant Napier used on his website http://www.grantsmilitaria.com that was posted earlier. reproduced with his permission. My personal view is that the no. 2 would often carry a rifle. Using the principle of what was then known as 'fire covering movement' the Lewis gun section would have to be capable of producing covering fire if the gun had a stoppage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Chris, GRO 2414 states: A new pattern carrier for carraige of Lewis gun magazines has been introduced to supplement the existing carrier authorized by GRO 1695. The new pattern carrier is of web, and consists of two pouches and connecting strap or braces. Each pouch holds two magazines. The scale of issue of carriers of both types will be:- Carriers, Magazine .303 inch Lewis gun 5 per gun Lewis gun .303 inch Pouches Magazine web 12 per gun Braces, pouch, magazine web 6 per gun Indents......etc. -------------- GRO 1695 (July 1916 introduced the Bucket carrier for 4 magazines, see photos above) SS 194 describes how to wear the pouches. I tried posting a .pdf file with SS 194 with no luck. SS 197 and many other documents call for a Lewis section to have an 8 man crew (not counting NCO). I can not find anywhere where there was an official reduction in this number from 1915 through 1918. However, real world expediancy was always present and most official documents do state that they should be used as guides and not as inflexible doctrine. An example of this is SS143 states that a platoon strength could vary and usually fell somewhere between 28 to 44 men with 36 being an average. Number below 28 the platoon should be disbanded. The ideal Lewis Section (15 through 18) should be: No. 1 Lewis gunner (carried gun and fired it) No. 2 Carried Magazine bucket, spare parts bag and assisted gunner No. 3 Carried Magazine Bucket and responsible for ammunition resupply from No.s 6, 7 and 8. No. 4 and 5 were scouts No's 6, 7 and 8 were the mules carrying the web pouches. The No. 2 was supposed to be armed with only the rifle. However, supplementing the armament is common practice if pistols could be found in excess of authorized stores. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 I wonder if any modern weapons have been designed this way . . . Peter in snowy Vancouver I can only speak for modern U.S. weapons. Yes. They are held together with pins that a soldier can easily press to field strip the weapon. This can be done in a matter of seconds, for most systems. So doing a hasty cleaning to remove mud or some other fouling material can be accomplished quickly and the weapon put back in action. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 31 December , 2003 Share Posted 31 December , 2003 Joe, Yes, I have always tried to track down any 'official' organization numbers for L.G. sections. the only figure lower than 8 is in the February, 1918 version of SS 143, The training and employment of platoons, 1918 where it says in Chapter 1; "2. In every platoon there will be three rifle sections and one Lewis gun section, each having as their minimum strength one N.C.O. and five other ranks,..." Happy new year from Australia Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 Hi Chris, Harry Patch was a Number 2 and just carried a revolver in action until he was wounded. Arthur Barraclough, another surviving veteran was also a member of a Lewis Gun crew. Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 2 January , 2004 Share Posted 2 January , 2004 We have just completed filming a two part programme for BBC1 about the last veterans. Various Chums portrayed some of the surviving veterans and some of Harry's stories were recreated including his story of shooting a German with his revolver and another about coming across a fatally wounded DCLI soldier who Harry thinks about shooting until the soldier dies. Hello Taff, This sounds interesting can you give us any more info at the present time, such as when these programmes will be shown - I for one will be setting my video and as you know my great-aunt is a 'Big Chums Fan' and she will be glued! Many thanks - Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 I wonder if any modern weapons have been designed this way . . . Peter in snowy Vancouver I can only speak for modern U.S. weapons. Yes. They are held together with pins that a soldier can easily press to field strip the weapon. This can be done in a matter of seconds, for most systems. So doing a hasty cleaning to remove mud or some other fouling material can be accomplished quickly and the weapon put back in action. Jon ...as are most modern (and not so modern) military firearms. Many Soviet weapons such as the PPSh 41,PPS, AK 47, AKM, AK74, Tokarev TT33, Makarov dating from WW2 to the present don't even need the bullet to strip it! Actually, come to think of it, I can't think of any 20th Century firearm (apart from revolvers) that need anything more than a bullet to strip it down for cleaning or removing blockages, etc. (Armourers tools needed to take it down to it's component parts though - though I did once witness my dad take a Vickers down to it's componants (a lot of them!!!) using a bullet and a coin!!!) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 The pre-modified SA80 'The Rifle' was designed to be dismantled with a spade! Mark Hell, Mark! It didn't even need that! The best thing to dismantle it was... ...Use!!! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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