Verdun

[john kemp]

To get a different outlook on the war I paid a visit to Verdun over a year ago

and to this day I am unable to come to a conclusion on how I feel about the

place.

Douaumont Ossuary- Even preparing myself, I felt physically sick whilst taking

my first look at ground level to see a pile of "teeth" looking at me, all put in

a heap together.

I gather the object of this worked.

The Trench of Bayonets - Firstly, no bayonets and barbed wire everywhere to

keep people out. This did nothing for me.

I dont wish to seem to be degrading the place as I really enjoyed my visit

especially as it was looking from a non-british angle but I find it strange how I

feel about the whole area.

I am interested to get other members thoughts, if they have visited Verdun.

Regards

John

[MartinWills]

I certainly felt "differently" on visiting Verdun. I believe much of this derives from not wholly being attune to the French way of things or the French character. Anyone who has visited a French Communal cemetery will know how different they are from a British Churchyard.

The way you look at the commemoration on the ground is different if you are not attune to the "ways and customs" of death for that nation. Without that emotional way of thought you will always see things as different and probably feel less comfortable with them. When you add to thsi that most French people do not have the same sense of family remembrance and genealogical interest that the British do it is inevitable that things are different.

Personally I do not find the visible contents of an Ossuary disturbing, but I do find it very different.

Verdun still holds the emotion in the French psyche in the way that the Somme does for the British, but that is where the similarity begins to end. I am hoping that another visit will bring me nearer to understanding the French viewpoint but I am sure it will take much longer to "understand" the French soldier of the Great War and his place in the France of today.

Martin

[Geoff Parker]

John

I visited Verdun some three or four years ago. Found it very interesting

as I knew little about the French involvement in the Great War. I visited

the Ossuary and peeked in a couple of the windows but cant say that

it had any effect on me. I found the cratered ground nearby much more

to my interest. Likewise I found the Trench of Bayonets totalling boring

after having heard so much about them over the years, I expected to

see a filled-in trench with rifle muzzles and bayonets sticking up en-masse.

Getting out and about around the forts and redoubts was far more interesting

and educational. You just keep coming across bunkers and old trench lines

hidden away in the woods.

Geoff

[AndyHollinger]

I write a monthly column in a Bicycle Racing newspaper and contritbute to a Bicycle Racing forum, similar to, but not as nice as this. I was joking around and made some very standard American remarks about the French military tradition ... citing their chief soldier was an Italian, etc. I got a 4 page letter from a reader in France who told me of his grandfather in WWI and how his Great Uncles died at Verdun ... well, to say the least, I apologized, publically on the board ... but the memory of Verdun is one much like Gettysburg is to Americans of Confederate descent .. maybe more ... For all their modern "ego" about being a great power and having an independent Nuclear deterrent, etc... Verdun was a real event and they did not pass.

[Guest Jeff Floyd]

My first visit to Verdun was on a fog-shrouded day. We drove by the Ossuary without seeing it because of the fog. When we finally found it, we never got to see the entire structure, so it was just a massive presence in the fog, which actually made it feel much, much larger than it is. Needless to say, the battlefield was out there in the fog, but impossible to see. The Trench of Bayonets struck me as a road-side gimmick. I, too, was attuned to the history and its place in the French psyche, but I was expecting much more.

The second visit, on a bright sunny day, diminished the Ossuary in the mind's eye, because I could see it all. The contents were not as disturbing as the contemplation of the numbers of men represented. We were able to see the area and, with the help of a 1921 Michelin Guide to the battlefields, were able to get some feel for the terrain and events.

On those two trips, I was struck by the absence of French tourists. There was the obligatory busload of Japanese, but almost all the the other voices I heard were American and British.

[paul guthrie]

I have been to the Verdun battlefields 3 times. I greatly enjoy it. It's most interesting to compare the nearly intact forts like Regret and Marre to Vaux and Douamount which are hulks nearly unrecognizable compared to these others. It is unlawful but they can be entered and there are bunks still in them. In places the floors are a bit dicey. Some forts still have guns w/o barrels.

It is unfortunate that foresters are strip mining much of this battlefield. It was too poisoned to support much native vegetation, the conifer forest there is not native and much is being replaced but the battlefield is lost forever.

I know a retired French MD who lives in Chatel Cherey in the Argonne. Hiw wife owns much of the land where Alvin York with some help killed about 25 and captured over 120 October 8, 1918 winning CMOH and becoming the most famous US soldier of the war. I saw a picture of a poilu in his house and inquired, it was his grandfather who along with his wife's gfather served from 14 to 18 and lived!

I have also met an Italian and seen a picture of his gfather and 5 brothers in uniform, all survived!

[Tim Birch]

I found the ossuary, like others I have seen a bit distasteful, but that's just a personal viewpoint. Far more poignant was the massive cemetery at Douaumont with those endless lines of graves.

I though the Trench of Bayonets was tacky and contrived, again no disrespect intended, just my personal view.

I enjoyed visiting the Forts, and in particular some of the more off the beaten track fortifications and ouverages. What I found particularly appealing was the lack of formality and the fact that it was possible to go onto and inside these fortifications where the original counter balance mechanisms for raising and lowering the gun cupolas were still there. Obviously these sites are dangerous, and extreme cautions needs to be exercised in exploring them, but at least the opportunity is there, and they have not been sealed off, or worse still commercialised.

I liked the way you could walk through the forests and explore, again care was required to watch out for holes, old trenches and rusted metal, not to mention unexploded orndnance, but the biggest problem was mosquitos which we found large and extremely aggressive!

Tim

[paul guthrie]

You know the ossuary building is both a cross and a shell.

Tim which forts have you been in? I have been in Marre Regret and Souville, there is a big gun there. It's so flattened you can't see nearly as much as the other 2. When that fort was rebuilt it was not big enough for an additional gun and they had to make a modification for that which you can see.

Christina has told us there are better forts of that era in the St. Mihiel salient but these 2 are quite good.

As I mentioned before one can also visit the Tavannes rail tunnel in which many French died in a fire. As others pointed out though the other tunnel built in 36 is on an active line and it's best viewed from the hill and it's a scramble too.

With a hard hat and flashlight I feel petty safe in these forts. We were once stopped from entering an ouvrage by the French Army who were there in camoflauge and boy was it good! They told us if we wanted to visit a fort we could go to Vaux and Douamount, we thanked them and left.

[Tim Birch]

Paul

Both Forts Douaumont and Vaux were interesting inside and out, although a little "commercialised" and popular. The Ouvrage de Froideterre was on the other hand deserted and facinating - torch (including a spare) and wellingtons essential, to go inside, but also lots to see outside.

Didn't persevere with Fort de Vacherauville and Ouvrage de Charny due to barbed wire over the entrances (with holes in it), and not properly equipped that day with torches, helmets and wellingtons. You are right, entry to many of these is forbidden, and it appears that the authority's laisser fair attitude is tightning up. Its a matter of making a responsible judgement based on circumstances and the make up of the group, and in no way are these posts pour encourages les autres!

Found it difficult to penetrate the dense undergrowth and forest at Mort-Homme and Cote 304, not helped by the fact that every little track leading out had been used as a lavatory - another problem with some of the fortifications.

Tim

[CROONAERT]

For those who've been moved, shocked, disgusted or however emotionally affected by the sights in the windows at the Ossuary at Douaumont, you want to see the ossuary at Bazeilles, near Sedan (from the 1870 fighting). After visiting this one, Douaumont pales into tasteful insignificance!!!!

Dave.

[Guest jbd]

The late Rose Coombes writes in her book "Before Endeavours Fade", that for many years the bones were not behind glass, but open. The glass was placed there as a result of souvenir hunters removing skulls and anything else they could steal. When I first saw a skull with a bullet hole in it, I was forcibly reminded of how the individual had died.

Respect and sorrow are the emotions I felt most strongly when I visited Verdun for the first time. I felt mush the same on my most recent visit in 2002.

The Trench of Bayonets "tacky"? I think not. I was perhaps fortunate to see it first when there were actual bayonets in place. Even these were long past the date when they could have been the original ones. They having been stolen by the souvenir hunters.

There are many recorded stories of whole columns of men being buried and being found many years afterwards. It is probably no more than 30 years ago that a column of British prisoners were uncovered with their German guard at the rear. He was the only one bearing arms! I understand that the story that is portrayed at the Bayonet Trench is actually substantially correct.

Barrie Dobson

The book "Before Endeavours Fade" was not only one of the earliest books of its kind, it was also the best, not only the, but now.

Barrie Dobson

[Matt Dixon]

My visit to the inside of Douaumont fort was somewhat spoiled by the mentality of a large group of French national service men, who seemed intent on seeing whose burp could echo the loudest down the tunnels inside the fort. That said I found it incredibly moving, especially seeing the cratered roof of the fort.

I think the Ossuary is very poignant and I found it very moving. Seeing a grinning skull with a bullet wound between its eyes was truly a sobering experience. It could be percieved as ghoulish, but I personally think there's nothing wrong with it. What did strike me though was the endless lines of crosses, almost like men standing to attention, it was certainly amongst the most impressive sites I have seen in cemeteries throughout France and Belgium. There is something about Verdun that is inherent in the French psyche, and I found the ossuary and cemetery a very fitting tribute.

I may not be alone in thinking this but I find it hard to be as moved by the French cemeteries as I do by the CWGC ones. Personally I think the crosses, although simple, do not really create the same impression as the white CWGC ones (the exception to this being La Targette French cemetery), likewise the German cemeteries never quite have the same impression on me.

I thought the Bayonet Trench little more than a tacky tourist trap (forgive me, just my opinion), and almost as disappointing as the Chemin des Dames, one of the most unimpressive battlefields I have seen.

[Guest jbd]

I thought the Bayonet Trench little more than a tacky tourist trap

I do not have a reference book in front of me, but my recollection is that the Bayonet Trench MEMORIAL (for that is what it is!) was built at a time that mass tourism to the battlefields was unknown.

To describe any memorial as "tacky", no matter how grotesque one may consider it, suggests not only a lack of respect, but a lack of understanding

Barrie Dobson

[Matt Dixon]

With respect, I fully appreciate having re-read the post the "tacky" was not the right word to have used, and I apologise for any offence, as there was none intended.

Having visited the battlefields and memorials for nearly 20 years, I understand and appreciate the significance of every memorial.

It was a poor choice of words on my part, and it was a case of not quite knowing how to say what I wanted to.

[Guest jbd]

No problem Matt. We all make inappropriate comments from time to time. Some of us (like me) more often than most.

Barrie Dobson

[aramsay]

In reply to some earlier comments........

I have some French in-laws, and in my experience, the French are no worse or better at methods or enthusiasm of remembering/researching the war.

And, in view that French losses were about double what Britain lost, I think they have paid their dues, and it's well up to them how they see fit to present the battlefields now.

My feeling is their understanding of WAR in general is far deeper than countries that were never invaded, which I feel is manifest in their present stance regarding world-affairs. I've always thought the Brits have an element of "playing at soldiers" about them............hence why so many of us (yes, me too!) like clambering over bunkers, or traipsing thro' clingy, clay-mud in mid-winter.

Just my €2,00 worth..........

Slainte, Alan

[David_Blanchard]

Chemin des Dames battlefield unimpressive? I don't understand this comment. The area is a majestic backwater of rural france still, considering its only 50 miles from Paris. I am biased of course, but the memorials are there if you are prepared to look, the Californe Plateau gives tremendous views over the Aisne down to Reims. The arboretum at Craonne is incredibly moving. The walled citadel of Laon makes an excellent base to tour the region. Then there is the cheap champagne.

Ok you are right it is an unimpressive battlefield...perhaps its best to keep it quiet.

[paul guthrie]

David you are absolutely right, view from Californie Plateau in unequaled at least to Le Eparges and maybe all the way to the Vosges. Do you remember the name of the ruined village there?