Cherisy, May 3rd, 1917

[horrocks]

A quick tale, unconnected, but which may give hope.

 

Some thirty years ago I was running a bar in the outer fringes of East London, and amongst our clients were a number of antiques dealers. One came in one day with a bronze statue of an infant child. Another customer was particularly interested in this odd artefact, and he bought it on the spot. It materialised that it had rung a bell in his memory of a large statue of a mother holding, originally, two infants in the centre of a German town (I unfortuately have long forgotten which), but one of the infants had been stolen by US troops in 1945. The gentleman's instinct was correct, and almost exactly 40 years after it had been stolen, infant and mother were reunited.

[stiletto_33853]

Thank you Fabrice, as Steve alluded to earlier in the thread you could tell the original position was the situation of an old MG post and could find bits and pieces around the statue.

Please keep us advised as the area is of great interest. I was saddened to see the statue had been removed and the general state of the area in comparison to previous visits so was very happy to hear that the area had been cleaned up, it was looking a mess.

Good luck and please thank all those involved in the project and clearing the site. Many men from the British 14th Division died between St. Michael's statue and the far side of Triangle Wood on 3rd May 1917, it is an area I try to visit as often as possible.

 

Great little episode Horrocks

 

Andy

[J Banning]

Thanks from me also Fabrice. I was in the area last month and had hoped to see the statue back in place. Now I know what happened I can understand why the site looked as it does. I look forward to seeing the new statue and, in time, the 22nd Bn CEF memorial. So many of their lads buried up the road in Quebec Cemetery.

With best wishes,

Jeremy   

[JimSmithson]

Hi Fabrice

Great to hear that things will be put back in order.  Also good to see you on the Forum and don't worry about your English, far better than my French!

Interesting that yet another Canadian memorial will be set up around Arras.  There is an absolute lack of many for British troops despite large numbers of units being involved in fighting both in 1917 and 1918.  Casual visitors to the area will soon believe only the Canadians fought around Arras. 

I live in Boiry Becquerelle and would love to meet up if you are interested in the Great War, especially around our area. 

 

Jim

 

 

[J Banning]

6 hours ago, JimSmithson said:

Casual visitors to the area will soon believe only the Canadians fought around Arras.

 

I feel your pain Jim!

[ray hurley]

On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2007 at 01:54, stiletto_33853 said:

The forming up line and objective of the 9th RB have already been described.

At the appointed hour - 4.03 - May 3rd, companies were disposed as follows:- In the first wave "A" Company, with one platoon of "B" Company, were on the right and "C" Company with one platoon of "D" Company on the left. In the second wave were three platoons of "B" Company on the right and three of "D" Company on the left.

Battalion H.Q. was in a trench south of the Guemappe and of the River Cojeul.

The attack started punctually, but from that moment no report was ever received from the companies in the first wave; communication after daylight was impossible and eight runners from these companies became casualties.

The right of the first wave evidently bore too much to the right and struck a new German trench which was wired and held by the enemy, but by 4.25 had passed beyond it, leaving some moppers up. All the eight officers of the first wave appear to have become casualties very early in the day - some being wounded several times - yet, despite heavy losses from enfilade machine gun fire, the line carried on, but few men, if any, ever reached the trenches which were their objective. Of N.C.O.'s in the two leading companies only seven returned.

The second wave went over in line and kept its direction but, owing to the light then being better, came under machine gun fire sooner than the first wave and also came upon machine gun positions which had been established after the passage of the first wave, or missed by it in the dark.

This second wave was finally held up after advancing some five hundred yards and dug in in a line of shell holes. As soon as the enemy discovered this the line was subjected to a bombardment of vane bombs and egg bombs while machine guns prevented any movement, the vane bombs outranging the rifle grenades with which it was sought to silence the machine guns.

 

[Guest]

I am going to Cherisy on May 3rd (100 years on) to see where my great uncle died. As far as I can see he was in 53rd Brigade which I think was supporting the 55th. Can anyone recommend further reading - or suggest what I should see to get a better feeling for what happened on that day? I am working through your various posts - which seem to be the best source of information on the web. 

Edited 1 May , 2017 by Guest

[neverforget]

8 hours ago, edwardpeck said:

I am going to Cherisy on May 3rd (100 years on) to see where my great uncle died. As far as I can see he was in 53rd Brigade which I think was supporting the 55th. Can anyone recommend further reading - or suggest what I should see to get a better feeling for what happened on that day? I am working through your various posts - which seem to be the best source of information on the web. 

As far as books on this sadly overlooked battle go, there are three that I would recommend: 

The Battlefields of the First World War  (Unseen Panoramas) by Peter Barton.

Arras by Peter Barton and Jeremy Banning.

Cheerful Sacrifice by Jonathan Nicholls. 

Also I would suggest downloading the Battalion/Brigade war diaries which come in at around three quid each.

Other than that, I don't think that you will do any better anywhere than this amazing thread. If you do, please let me know. 

Very best wishes for your research and visit.?

 

[Guest]

Hello all following this tread, especially Fabrice in Cherisy. I, along with my wife, visited Cherisy and Triangle Wood on the 3rd May this year to commemorate my wife's Great Uncle, who died there, 100 years ago during the first wave of the battle of the 3rd May. Felix Baker was in the 9th Battalion The Rifle Brigade ( Prince Consorts Own). We are not sure what company he was in, which would give the time of when he would have advanced. I reckon we got to about 50 to 100 meters of where Felix fell and placed a small memorial next to a field marker, so hopefully it might remain for a little while. It was a moving experience, as we were completely alone in the fields that morning, so tranquil and in complete contrast to 1917. I also took a picture of some trenches with a more peaceful purpose, that of pomme d'terre. Onto a small note for Fabrice Thery. Many thanks for giving the story behind St. Michel. We recently saw an article in a French newspaper (L'Echo du Pas de Calais, Ne pas oublier les Cousins de Cherisy) about the association now set up in Cherisy and how the statue was stolen; my wife's uncle took a picture of this statue for a book he had published about his Uncle Felix in the 1990's, so it was a surprise to arrive at the site and find the statue gone. We would like very much to come to the inauguration of the new statue if possible, as we have a house about 1 hour north of Cherisy so visit France often, if Fabrice can send me an e-mail address through a private mail on this site, we can exchange details and hopefully come for the ceremony.

If anybody can help in giving info on how to find Felix's company that day, we would much appreciate it. We have the war diaries for the 9th Battalion, but no details as to the actual company details for the battle, are written in it.

Lastly, here's a picture of Felix some months before he died, that is also on the IWM remembrance site.

I recently read the book "Cheerful Sacrifice". It has some wonderful stories, but alas some awful memories also; well worth the time to read though. Sadly not much about the 3rd May and the 3rd battle of the Scarpe, it's glossed over.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Hi all. Thanks for an interesting thread. I'm writing a screenplay about the Battle of Arras and setting the final scenes around the village of Cherisy offensives on 3rd May.

I do struggle to understand the difference between divisions, battalions and companies, so I find it hard to place who was who and where they were on particular days in particular offensives. I'm trying to make the script as historically accurate as I can, but I need use of some artistic license too, while remaining respectful.

However - is anyone able to tell me if there were any West Yorkshire or Lancashire companies in action on the day?

Further, as you are the experts, what would you want to be captured about this day, if you had to choose something? And what do you wish to be remembered about the Battle of Arras in general? I agree that it is an under-represented battle which is why I have chosen it for the backdrop to the script, as opposed to the Somme etc. I appreciate any responses. Many thanks.

[neverforget]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

I'm afraid that I am far from being one of the experts, but I do have a vested interest in the Arras battle, and particularly in the events of 3rd May, as that was the day my great uncle met his end, along with half of the 5th Oxford and Buckinghamshire light infantry (his battalion).

A couple of points to note might be that firstly, the action of the 3rd May, known as the 3rd battle of the Scarpe, was a particularly doomed one, but was ordered to go ahead in order to keep the Germans busy enough to distract them from the knowledge that the French on our right had all but given up the fight.

Having visited the scene I can tell you that the objective of 42nd brigade at least was a hopeless task.

Another point worth noting is that the Arras battle was in terms of the daily casualty rate the most bloody of the war. The figures to hand which are taken from Jonathan Nicholls' book "Cheerful Sacrifice" are: 4,076 per day, as opposed to 2,943 for the Somme battle, 2,323 for the Paschendaele battle, and 3,645 for Operation Michael in March 1918.

The book I mention, along with the incredible font of knowledge that is this thread created by Andy, are invaluable sources for a project such as the one you are involved in.

Good luck with your presentation. Hopefully one of our resident experts will be along shortly to help you.

The rough break up would be 4 companies to a battalion, 4 battalions to a brigade and 4+brigades to a division.

[Guest]

I hope someone can be of help please. You may have read a post I put here last year when my wife and I visited Cherisy in May 2017. A few months after our visit, we saw an article in a French newspaper which informed the reader that the statue of St, Michel was to be reinstated; this being stolen some years before. I believe the idea was to also commemorate the 1918 battle for Cherisy, where many Canadians lost their lives. I have written to both the person mentioned in the French paper (Fabrice Thery) and the Mayor of Cherisy asking when, and if, the reinstatement will take place, unfortunately I have no replies from either source; now to the request for help, does anybody know if the statue of St. Michel will be replaced this year, I am guessing around August time, when I think the 1918 battle was fought. My wife's family have a bit of a link to the statue, so it would mean a lot to see the inauguration. Thank in advance for any help you can offer.

[MaxD]

Quick first look.  This link;

https://www.helloasso.com/associations/st-michel-grande-guerre-a-cherisy/collectes/monument-commemoratif-de-la-bataille-de-cherisy

is an appeal for funds for a ceremony of commemoration on 27-29 August 1918.  They have a Facebook page too so should be a good source of info.https://www.facebook.com/pg/SMGGC/posts/

 

Max

[stiletto_33853]

Candyldp,

If you are looking immediately around the Cherisy area then the 18th or 14th Division looks favourite. No Yorkshire or Lancashire Regiments are in these divisions. Can I suggest you have a look at the long long trail http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk on this site for help regarding the make up of Division & Battalions. If you need any help regarding the 14th or 18th Div there is plenty of knowledgeable people n here (18th Div not me, but 14th I can help)

 

M.Huggins, sorry the 9th Rifle Brigade personnel records are not as complete as the 7th & 8th unfortunately. However given your wife's relatives number he would have arrived in France late 1916. I am not sure about dates re. the re-instatement of St. Michael's statue and I hope Fabrice might pop in and advise us.

 

Andy

[P M Compton]

I have only just found this website, so I hope you won't mind me adding my comment and question to this old thread. My sincere thanks to those who contribute, because I had difficulty tracking this information down. I thought it had all been lost in the London Blitz.

 

My maternal grandfather was A. Cpl Frederick John Brooks (B/777, 8th TRB) captured at Cherisy after being shot in the leg. He spent the rest of the war as POW in Dulmen camp. He is near the top of the list of names on Page #17, listed as Missing. According to his discharge documents he was from the 5th Battalion, and posted to France 4th March 1917. He was reposted immediately to the 10th Bat, and then reposted again to the 8th, joining them in the field on 15th April, before being captured on 3rd May.

 

He originally enlisted on 24th August 1914, and I am having  trouble finding out what he was doing between then and April 1917. He received some sort of leg injury on 31 July 1915, and was promoted to A. Cpl on 1st July 1916. Of his 4 yrs 210 days in TRB, only 2 yrs 17 days were with the BEF. Presumably that did not include the period as a POW?

 

Thanks again to all those who contribute.

Paul

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Paul,

Your grandfather first went overseas on the 20/5/15, which ties in with the 8th RB going overseas. Hence I would presume he was sent back to the UK either injured or ill then sent back to France. His timing with the 5th RB was the standard Reserve battalion men were sent to prior to being sent overseas again. On his arrival at the Infantry Base Depot he would have been sent to whatever battalion needed re-inforcements at the time, in this case the 10th and then reposted to the 8th.

I will have a little look to see if I have further records of him to see if we can trace him for you.

 

Andy

Edited 12 November , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

Paul,

He was wounded at Hooge 30/7/15 receiving a Gunshot wound to his right leg.

 

Andy

[P M Compton]

Andy,

 

Thanks for your response. I have attached the only photo we have of Frederick Brooks as a soldier. I don't know when it was taken, but by then he was a Cpl. He is standing at the extreme right.

[stiletto_33853]

Paul,

Many thanks for the photograph, it is always great to put a face to the men being researched.

At Hooge he was in "C" Company which was placed to the right of the Hooge Crater, so was one of the survivors from the first flame thrower attacks on the British. C Company suffered quite horrendous casualties with a few of that Company being taken as POW's during the action. Unsure if he survived the initial attack and was wounded in the Counter attack in the afternoon.

His time with the 5th would have been at Shurland Hall on the Isle of Sheppey then probably Scrappsgate Camp just prior to being sent overseas again. This camp was used solely for soldiers prior to being sent overseas again.

 

Andy 

[P M Compton]

Many thanks for that information. I had no idea he was involved in such fighting, and seems to have been very lucky to escape with his life at both Hooge and Cherisy. During the last year I had been reading 'The Salient' by Alan Palmer, and 'The Riddles of Wipers' by John Ivelaw-Chapman, and had no idea how relevant they were to my family. In fact the dust jacket of the latter book has a large scale trench map with the Chateau of Hooge right in the centre.

 

Sadly, Fred Brooks died aged just 59 just before I was born, but I am putting together all the information I can gather for the next generation. Now back to my other grandfather who served in the Royal Navy, but was moved to a new ship three times, just before the ships he just left were sunk. Luck again!

[stiletto_33853]

Paul,

You might want to have a little look at this thread, the Crater was not in the Chateau grounds, but the thread gives you a little idea.

 

Andy

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Remembering the men of the 14th Division this day 102 years ago.

 

Andy