IanA Posted 29 April , 2007 Share Posted 29 April , 2007 I have recently been given a group of photographs which originally belonged to my wife's grandfather who served in the Cameronians, 9th Sco Rifles and, later, in an officers cadet battalion. C.S.M. Herbert Webster is seated behind the drum on the right. I thought this might be of general interest because of the piper on the right - he doesn't look much over ten years of age! Any comments on this photo would be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 29 April , 2007 Share Posted 29 April , 2007 I thought the wee one would be used to go up the pipes to clean the spit and hair out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 29 April , 2007 Share Posted 29 April , 2007 You don't suppose it's Jimmy Krankie do you? Fandabbydozie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie Posted 30 April , 2007 Share Posted 30 April , 2007 Interesting photo. I am surprised that only the pipers are wearing kilts and the rest trousers. Is this usual? Why not everyone in kilts? This wearing of kilts into battle has always surprised me - the 4th regiment of the South AFrican brigade for instance was called the Transvaal Scottish and mainly made up of Afrikaans miners - yet they wore kilts throughout the Great War. I cant understand why. Kathie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 30 April , 2007 Share Posted 30 April , 2007 The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) were a Scottish Lowland Regiment, and didn't wear kilts (except the pipers of course). Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 1 May , 2007 Share Posted 1 May , 2007 Ian, do we have any idea of the date of the image? Are there any significant details on the Drums? Nice pic by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Hi Barry, CSM Webster was posted to the 9th SR on 14.8.14. and served with them until discharged on 11.8.15. The battalion appears to have gone to France on the 12.5.15. So if it is Bordon Camp then it must be between Aug '14 and May '15. What puzzles me is who are they all? I think I can see 46 sergeants or CSMs. The officer in the middle is the same one as in the photo on page 64 of 'A Tale of Two Captains' and that was certainly taken at Bordon. How many sergeants does one battalion need? Since this was a brand new battalion, being trained up rapidly, did they employ a large number of sergeant instructors to get the men ready? And did the wee boy go to France? Nothing at all on the drums, I'm afraid. Just highly polished brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Incidentally, Barrie, the National Archives appear to have the war diaries on-line for the 9th SR but only from 1916. Do you happen to know whether the diaries from the early part of the war survive? Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 2 May , 2007 Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Hi Ian, I can't be sure from the photograph attached, and the picture in 'A Tale of Two Captains' isn't that clear, but I have a feeling the officer in the middle is Lieutenant Colonel A. C. Northey, who was the C.O. of the 9th Battalion Cameronians. If you could do a high res scan of said officer, I could compare it to one we have of Northey. If this pic was taken in Borden shortly after the battalion was formed (c. August 20th 1914) then they would still be at the early stages of training and getting the battalion up to proper fighting strength. The 10th Bn Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) were also in Borden during their training, so it is possible that this photograph has some of the NCO's from both Battalions in it. As for the diary - we have the 9th Bn's war diary from March 11th, 1915 onwards. I'm not sure if our transcript is from the copies sent by Kew, or if we had the regimental copy from the time, either way - we have the full diary. If I can be of any help just let me know. All the best, Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 How about these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 2 May , 2007 Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Thanks Ian. So, what do we think, do we have a match? Northey taken in 1911 And another one which I have no idea when it dates from, nice tache though [edit: Arthur Cecil Northey was a Captain from 1899 - 1913, so this second pic could have been taken any time after the Boer war (medal ribbons) and 1913] Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Definite match!! I will get up to Hamilton sometime this summer and bring many photos with me. There are one or two beauties of a company all wearing absolutely dazzling Boer War ribbons. Freshly minted! This may be a big ask (I don't know how detailed it is) but would it be possible to scan or copy the diary of the 9th for the period that Webster was with them. Were they involved at Festubert? If this is too much, just say and I'll organise something else. Cheers, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 2 May , 2007 Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Ian, I'll send you a PM Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Thanks Barrie. Re the very young piper - his name was "..Gibson from Dunblane who was fourteen years old and afterwards became sergeant-major in the regiment. He was a tough lad who insisted on playing a full set of pipes, although I'd offered to buy him a smaller set, and went out on all marches. He never fell out, but very nearly burst from the amount of food and buns that were given to him at every halt by local inhabitants. He was a most popular person and an enormous help to the battalion." Taken from 'A Tale of Two Captains' - Rory Malcolm Stuart Baynes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 2 May , 2007 Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Hang on to your hat Ian. 3233625 (formerly 12912) Gibson, William. Enlisted 10/09/14 - Aged 14 years Old Place of Enlistment - Stirling Trade on Enlistment - Piper Place of Birth - Hamilton Name of woman married - Edith Gladys Grant Place and date of Marriage - Lewisham, 11/02/28 Service Home 10/9/14 to 8/10/19 en route 9/10/19 to 31/10/19 India 1/11/19 to - Medals awarded General Service Medal - Clasp Kurdistan Discharged to Commission 20/6/43 Other notes Posted to 169 O.C.T.U. 31/10/39 Reposted Cameronians 8/12/41 So, according to his entry in the enlistment books (postwar before anyone asks - made for the introduction of the new Army Number) William Gibson did not serve overseas in the Great War. But, according to the NA medal index card database, he has a mic! http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 Interesting to learn that he was commissioned, i'll now be trawling the Regimental Journal for the 40s to see if there is any mention of him. I checked CWGC and there was a 2nd Lt Gibson killed during WW2, but in 1940, so too early to be our young piper here. Cool stuff Ian - keep it coming, lets see what else we can unearth Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Good stuff Barrie! Given the character of the lad, I would put money on his going overseas with the 9th S.R. I'm just imagining Herbert Webster sitting here and my asking him "Do ye mind Billy Gibson?" What would he have to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 2 May , 2007 Share Posted 2 May , 2007 I'd think he would have quite a lot to say for the chap. From my quick skimming through 'The Covenanter' it would appear that not only was Gibson a keen piper and highland dancer, but also an accomplished footballer and athlete of some reputation. He was also a dab hand with a deck of cards and a bit of 'shark' at the Billiards Table from all account. Found this in the 1929 Covenanter, thought you might like to see it And with that - I think it's time I went home! Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 2 May , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2007 Cheers, Barrie. You've earned your rest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ekellaway Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 This post is a bit off topic but as you guys seem to have lots of info on the Cameronians.... where were they initially based in the UK after the Boer war (interested in whereabouts from 1903-1908)? Also has anyone got any more photos of A. C. Northey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 24 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2009 Hi Clovis and welcome to the forum, I take it you are interested in the 1st Battalion the Cameronians? From my reading of 'A tale of Two Captains', it appears that they were in Cawnpore, India in 1908. Before that (1904) they had been in Nowshera. Barrie Duncan works at the regimental museum in Hamilton and he will be able to give a definitive answer. I will try to PM him to let him know about your query. Cheers, Ian (Well, I would if his in box wasn't full.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 October , 2009 Share Posted 24 October , 2009 Medals awarded General Service Medal - Clasp Kurdistan So, according to his entry in the enlistment books (postwar before anyone asks - made for the introduction of the new Army Number) William Gibson did not serve overseas in the Great War. But, according to the NA medal index card database, he has a mic! So at some stage he got to Iraq. There were some post armistice kerfuffles on the Kurdistan border with Turkey (who had repudiated the original peace treaty and were still technically at war). Could this have been counted as a ToW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 24 October , 2009 Share Posted 24 October , 2009 From memory the 1st Battalion served in South Africa and India prior to the outbreak of the Great War. Where Northey served I can't be sure - I have a feeling he might have done a stint as an adjutant of one of the militia or volunteer units, but again I can't guarantee tha I'm not just talking total rubbish. I'll PM you with my email address with info on what we might have. Ian, I do sometimes remember to empty my inbox, but not often His Iraq service would be with 2nd Battalion in the early 1920s; the 2nd Bn were in India and took part in the Kurdistan operations c1921-22 (I think). [Edit - Ian, chances are you already know this but I just noticed that R. M. S. Baynes is in both group photo's you attached, next to Webster in the top photo, and next to Northey in the bottom one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 24 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2009 From memory the 1st Battalion served in South Africa and India prior to the outbreak of the Great War. [Edit - Ian, chances are you already know this but I just noticed that R. M. S. Baynes is in both group photo's you attached, next to Webster in the top photo, and next to Northey in the bottom one. They went on to South Africa on leaving Cawnpore. Yes, I did know about Baynes. I had corresponded with his son, John. Now, off you go and take a dustpan and broom to that inbox of yours. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 25 October , 2009 Share Posted 25 October , 2009 Clovis, I'm afraid I can't send you a PM as your still only in memembers1 group - I think if you make a few more posts (up to 10 maybe) then you get into members2 and have access to the PM system. In answer to your question - your best bet is to submit an enquiry to the museum directly - the address can be found in the museum section on the Cameronians website, www.cameronians.org. Cheers Barrie P.S. My inbox has some room now if you need to get in touch (when you can access PM's that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ekellaway Posted 26 October , 2009 Share Posted 26 October , 2009 Thanks for all this information as I appreciate that it's off-topic. Will try to think of some more relevant questions on WWI! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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