4th Btn Royal Highlanders (Black Watch)

[Black Watch]

Looking for info as to where they were and what they were doing 9/5/15, in particular looking for any info on

Sjt William Dick Brown 892, who was KIA on that day

Neil

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

The 4th Battalion on this day were taking part in the action fought at Aubers Ridge.

Regards,

Stewart

[truthergw]

9th May was the one day battle of Aubers Ridge. South of Amentieres. Part of the Indian Corps, Bareilly Brigade relieved Dehra Dun Bgde at the cost of over 200 men. Bgde consisted of !/4 and 2nd B.W. with 58th Rifles and 41st Dogras. Very few of the men got more than twenty yards from their line. Heavy casualties were the order of the day with no gains.

[Black Watch]

Thanks guys, looks like thats where he bought it then.

Neil

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

William Dick Brown is on the Monifieth Roll of Honour. The Black Watch was very well represented at Aubers Ridge with the 1st, 2nd, 4th, & 5th Battalions in action that day - possibly the best represented Regiment, although I haven't checked.

The Battleground Europe Book gives an excellent account of the Battle and of all the Black Watch battalions - unlike the one on Neuve Chapelle (You wouldn't have even known the 4th Bn fought at the battle unless you scrutinize the Trench Map with a magnifying glass! Not even a mention in the Index!). Anyway, I'm going off topic. Here's the decent book I'm on about :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Aubers-Ridg...1963&sr=8-1

At this battle, the 17 year old Donald Fisher Pyott was buried by his father: CSM Donald Pyott. Donald recovered the platoon flag from Lt Weinberg - the first officer in the 4th to be killed. Donald being killed shortly afterwards. Also, Pte. John Troup buried his father Sgt Archie Troup. Archie Troup was in A Coy and the Big Drummer.

The assaulting troops had to cross 300yds of flat open ground dissected by a stream that was too deep to wade. The stream had few crossing points – narrow bridges – some hidden, some destroyed, and some blocked by the bodies of the preceding waves of assaulting troops. The whole of NML was covered by deadly MG fire.

The two 4th BW officers in the assaulting Coy soon realized that most of their men were killed or wounded, and the attack had failed. They ordered the men to lie down until dark, then crawl back to the British lines.

3 Companies of the 4th do not go 'Over the bags!', as they are all that is left of the Bareilly Brigade Reserve.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[Black Watch]

Thanks Tom, hoped I might hear from you on this thread. I picked up Sgt Brown's death penny at an auction in Dundee yesterday, thats why I'm looking for info about him.

Neil

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil:

The battalion moved up by the CRESCENT communication trench, on arrival at the Assembly trenches orders were received to occupy BLACKADDER and CRESCENT trenches - great difficulty was experienced in carrying this out owing to the one an only communication trench being blocked by the relieved Dehra Dun Brigade and wounded.

The occuptation of these trenches was not completed until 2.15pm

At 1.50pm, an order was received to attach A Coy to the 58th Rifles

At 3pm, A Coy was passed up into the fire trench and arrangements completed for the moving of other Coys to the firing line if necessary.

At 3.10pm, orders were received to move the battalion up to the fire trench so that it would not be unoccupied during the advance of the 58th Rifles - B Coy was accordingly passed up to the firing line, and D Coy brought up from BLACKADDER Trench to CRESCENT Trench.

After the failed attack, the fire trench was overcrowded with wounded and A Coy was withdrawn to CRESECENT Trench, in which positions the Battalion remained until relieved by the Leicester Regiment, at midnight, after which the battalion moved to LANDSDOWN POST.

The 2 Platoons of A Coy, that crossed the parapet, lost heavily. The Battalion was under heavy shell fire from entering the assembly trenches B1 & B2 and incurred many casualties throughout the day.

Casualties:

1 Officer KIA (Lt Weinberg PD)

6 Officers Wounded (Maj Tosh, Maj Muir, Maj Rogers RAMC, Capt Boase, Lt RObertson J N H, 2nd Lt Cox)

30 ORs KIA

120 ORs Wounded (6 Died of Wounds, 1 Missing - unofficially reported Killed)

Pte Smith, one of the officers servants went over the parapet to his injured officer and stayed with him till dark, then brought him in.

From Haunting Years by William Linton Andrews: ‘…Waited till dark to go out and pick up the wounded…we were greatly disheartened. The night turned cold’.

Hope this gives you some more useful information

Aye

Tom McC

[truthergw]

Neil,

William Dick Brown is on the Monifieth Roll of Honour. The Black Watch was very well represented at Aubers Ridge with the 1st, 2nd, 4th, & 5th Battalions in action that day - possibly the best represented Regiment, although I haven't checked.

.................

Tom McC

Good to see a bit of detail Tom. As you say the Black Watch were well represented at all of the 1915 battles. The losses at Loos were horrendous and I believe it was after this that the practice of holding back a cadre from each battalion was adopted. Heavy losses were particularly felt in Dundee, Perthshire, Angus and Fife. With two Scottish divisions as the assault troops at Loos, that scenario must have been repeated over most of Scotland after Loos. Strangely, the lesson was not applied to the Pals battalions sent in at the Somme.

[Black Watch]

Thanks again for extra info Tom, got quite a lot of stuff about him now. Dont suppose anyone has a map of attack?

Neil

[truthergw]

There is a Battleground Europe Book, " Aubers Ridge". I would think the only one devoted to a one day battle. Heaps of Pics, maps etc. Available very reasonable from Amazon. Co.UK

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

Have not at present got a detailed map of the attack. The WFA have a facility to search for trenches and check the map sheets.

First of all, here is a link to an index of the Map Sheets

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/the...index-bonne.jpg

And, here is a facility for Trench Search (It is not exhaustive):

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/the...chmaps/town.htm

Hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

The 4th Black Watch attack was just south-west of Neuve Chapelle, near a place called Richebourg L'Avoue.

Again, hope this is useful

Aye

Tom McC

[truthergw]

Thanks Tom, hoped I might hear from you on this thread. I picked up Sgt Brown's death penny at an auction in Dundee yesterday, thats why I'm looking for info about him.

Neil

I will be in that area in a couple of weeks. If you want a picture of a headstone or something of that nature just shout.

[Black Watch]

I will be in that area in a couple of weeks. If you want a picture of a headstone or something of that nature just shout.

Thanks for the offer Tom, he doesn't have a grave but is on the Le Touret Memorial (panels 24-26) if you get a chance.

Neil

Have a nice trip

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

Here is a clip from the General Area (36SW3). The trouble is it is July 1915 and it does not have the British Trenches named.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

Here is a closer picture. The Bareilly Brigade are attacking roughly about the 10 B, you can see the ditch that bisected the area too.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

Here is the same map, however, I have marked the direction of the attack, and the yellow circle represents the impressive Indian Memorial, which was built on the location of Port Arthur. I hope this helps for any future trips to the area.

Aye

Tom McC

[dundeesown]

Hi some pics of the 4th & 4/5th Bn Black Watch.

Pte David L.Butchart of the 4th ( i`m sure ) and in camp .

[dundeesown]

Another two pics not sure if 4th or 4/5th Bn

We are 90% sure this is 200503 Pte John Gibb of the 4/5th KIA 28/07/1918.

not sure about group pic.

I`d be over the moon if any experts know if I`m blethering many thanks gary,

[dundeesown]

This is pic of the Lad that has us only 90% sure about Pte Gibb.

[Black Jock]

Looking for info as to where they were and what they were doing 9/5/15, in particular looking for any info on

Sjt William Dick Brown 892, who was KIA on that day

Neil

Neil,

I meant to post his photo a while back

[Black Jock]

This is a newspaper article

[Black Watch]

Thanks Tom, It's great to see a picture of him.

Neil

[Black Watch]

Hi some pics of the 4th & 4/5th Bn Black Watch.

Great pics, I'm sure young Tom will be on soon investigating the skyline to find out where the first one was taken.

Neil

[Black Jock]

Gary,

Good photos, thanks for sharing. here is John Gibbs Medal Card. Was he a relative?

Tom