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Sherwood Foresters - Help


stevem49

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Cpl Frederick Ashmore is listed as - 12553, 203485 and 20639. he served in 9th Bn, 2nd Bn and 1/5th.

As he volunteered in August 1914 why three numbers - any opinions welcomed.

His daughter also thought he was in the RE's but i think this is becasue he dug some saps (an ex miner).

It looks as though he was sick on Gallipoli, returned to England via Malta and then sent to 2nd Battalion on Somme.

stevem

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Steve

My suggestion would be 12553 on enlistment in August 1914 (Andrew can check if that number fits the date) into either 2nd or 9th. He was then transfered to the 1/5th sometime after April 1917 and to move him into the TF he went via the 20*** numbering system (i.e. 20639) and was then given 203485 once he officially joined the 1/5th.

You will see that there are two 20639 men

1) is the original man enlisted 1915 (or so?)

2) is Ashmore moved from Regulars to TF via 20*** system

I have seen this with a number of 1/6th Battn men, although the 20*** never got higher than 20073 (I don't think anyway)

cheers

Mike

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Steve

I am always reluctant to comment on the Sherwoods because ther are too many experts on the Board :) but logic dictates that the order should be 9th, 1/5th and then 2nd otherwise there would have been no need for a further Regular/Service number ie the 203485 is clearly a six figure March/April 1917 TF renumbering - if the move had been made from the 9th to the 2nd Battalions there would have been no need to have allocated a further service number.

I think that the only mystery is that the 20639 number appears to be very low for what (in logic at least) appears to be a post 1917 transfer.

Regards

Mel

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order should be 9th, 1/5th and then 2nd

Mel

I think that makes sense because he could have served in the 2nd Battn and still kept his '5th Battn' number. I've seen examples of that with the 1/6th Battn, who moved onto other Battns

The 20639 is definately this weird SF numbering system that was used to move men around Battns in 1917. Just look at the men around this number:-

Loomes 11747 - 20636 - 203482

Passam 20638 - 203484

ASHMORE 12553 - 20639 - 203485

Ashmore (P) 20640 - 203486

Collinson 20642 - 203488

And all of the 206** have a 2nd man who was the 'original' 1914-15 enlistment

Mike

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Mike

I can see your point about the sequence.

The whole regimental numbering system often makes as much sense as a chocolate fireguard!

:P

Regards

Mel

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Absolutely :(

Here is a fine example of such.

Private Smith was originally in the 1/8th with a pre-1917 number (probably enlisted in 1910-11). He was then transfered to 1/6th Battn via the 20*** series, given a 1/6th Battn post Feb-1917 number and then went around the houses :blink:

I think that I've narrowed down when this series of numbers was used and I think it was due to ACI 1499

post-4619-1177352566.jpg

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Mike

That is astonishing! It is almost as if the clerks have been on the tipple. :P

I have dabbled a bit with the Royal Berks numbering but I have never seen anything as convoluted as that.

Regards

Mel

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many thanks chaps :D

I think the move may have been 9th, 1/5th and 2nd. I am working from his daughters notes (2006)

Some of the info is mixed - for instance in the middle of 1916 she mentions her Dad - Chatting to Col Bosanquet over a mug of tea A highly respected officer. In brackets she puts (I believe he lost an arm at some point) - He was wounded in the hand on 9th Aug 1915 and killed on 21st !! As well as his illness on Gallipoli, he was wounded in France which would account for three battalions.

Probably - Ill Gallipoli - home 1915 - 9th Bn

1916 - to the Somme - wounded - 1/5th Bn

1917 - to France - 2nd battalion.

She also mentions that his battalion with him - Kept watch on the Rhine until 1919.

stevem

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many thanks chaps :D

I think the move may have been 9th, 1/5th and 2nd. I am working from his daughters notes (2006)

Some of the info is mixed - for instance in the middle of 1916 she mentions her Dad - Chatting to Col Bosanquet over a mug of tea A highly respected officer. In brackets she puts (I believe he lost an arm at some point) - He was wounded in the hand on 9th Aug 1915 and killed on 21st !! As well as his illness on Gallipoli, he was wounded in France which would account for three battalions.

Probably - Ill Gallipoli - home 1915 - 9th Bn

1916 - to the Somme - wounded - 1/5th Bn

1917 - to France - 2nd battalion.

She also mentions that his battalion with him - Kept watch on the Rhine until 1919.

stevem

Just realised - she mentioned he went to Chesterfield by train (he is one of Andrew's Tibshelf men) - nearest recruiting office and then to Markeaton Park and the tented camp. I presume he must be an August 1914 man. (She also mentions 'when war was declared on 28th June 1914!)

Confused of Coventry :D

stevem

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as convoluted as that.

Certainly is, BUT, it provides a superb example of why the TF had to adopt the 6-digit renumbering in 1917. Private Smith served with each of the other 3 Battalions in the 139th Brigade who might have had their own '1156 man' at the same (I haven't checked B) )

think of the confusion.......... :o

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The 28th June 1914 was the day of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria - the day the ball was set rolling....

Steve.

P.S. That's my 5,000th post !! :o

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P.S. That's my 5,000th post !! :o

Congrats!

I was just reading in the Skindles thing (my first visit and I don't know what a skindle is <_< ) that your 5000th post was imminent.

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....he is one of Andrew's Tibshelf men.....

Eh? What? Frederick Ashmore!

I'll be back!!

(This work thing keeps getting in the way)

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Eh? What? Frederick Ashmore!

I'll be back!!

(This work thing keeps getting in the way)

quote - Shelley found out that someone (Andrew Hesketh) in Tibshelf is researching all the villagers who served in the Great War, so we are waiting for him to contact us - unquote (Granddaughter of Fred- 2006)

Frederick Ashmore born Tibshelf 4th August 1893.

:D

stevem

(Best retire)

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Really? News to me. I must go through all my e-mails. I get quite a lot of requests and could easily have missed one.

Steve, by all means tell them to fire a reminder off to me. I would not deliberately ignore this.

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Hi

Sorry to interupt this thread but was very interested to note about the strange 20000 number series for the Sherwoods in the 46th Division. Myself and Jim Davies had been a while ago trying to get our head around exactly the same numbering system with the Lincolnshire Battalions of the 46th Division. Here is an example that shows it seems to work in a very similair way:

Ceal Burdall - 2033 1/4th Lincs; then renumbered 20212 1/5th Lincs; renumbered 242403 whilst with the 1/5th and then transferred to the 1/4th before finally ending up with the 10th. He seems to have been issued his 20000 number when he was posted from the 1/4th to the 1/5th on 17th December 1916.

Mike i would be very interested to know what ACI 1499 was if you would be so kind?

Cheers

Chris

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Hi

Sorry to interupt this thread but was very interested to note about the strange 20000 number series for the Sherwoods in the 46th Division. Myself and Jim Davies had been a while ago trying to get our head around exactly the same numbering system with the Lincolnshire Battalions of the 46th Division. Here is an example that shows it seems to work in a very similair way:

Ceal Burdall - 2033 1/4th Lincs; then renumbered 20212 1/5th Lincs; renumbered 242403 whilst with the 1/5th and then transferred to the 1/4th before finally ending up with the 10th. He seems to have been issued his 20000 number when he was posted from the 1/4th to the 1/5th on 17th December 1916.

Mike i would be very interested to know what ACI 1499 was if you would be so kind?

Cheers

Chris

Must be an East Midlands thing :D

stevem

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Mike i would be very interested to know what ACI 1499 was if you would be so kind?

Hi Chris

ACI 1499 related to the changes in the system of transfering and posting of Infantry drafts on arrival in France and details how they should be numbered.

Graham Stewart was kind enough to send me a copy by e-mail.

Its dated 1916 and I'm not sure if this includes the 20*** series or just renumbering per se.

The reason I say that is because I'm pretty sure that the 20*** series was used sometime after the 6th January 1917, but I'm not precisely sure when.

Mike

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