pandabean Posted 21 April , 2007 Share Posted 21 April , 2007 Hi, I was reading a post that was posted in November regarding the RAMC and No.4 Stationary Hospital. It is mentioned that a certain war diary gives details of patients. I was wondering if these are of any use for researching a soldier who was taken to 1/2 London Clearing Station in 1916 or have I followed a piece of string that does not lead to the cheese. If they do exist hwo do I find them? I tried the reference numbers in the thread below but there wasnt anything at NA. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=63344&hl= Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 21 April , 2007 Share Posted 21 April , 2007 Andy That thread refers to war diaries and admission and discharge books [A&D Books]. During the war most, if not all, medical units had an A&D Book so information was recorded about all the casualties that arrived and then left the Unit but most of them have been destroyed. The ones that survived can be found under the reference MH106 at the National Archive. The A&D Books had nothing to do with the war diaries. I can advise that the 1st/2nd London Casualty Clearing Station was No 58 (1/2nd London) Casualty Clearing Station, the reference number of the war diary for this unit is WO95/501. As far as I'm aware, the A&D Book for this unit has been lost. Hope this helps Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandabean Posted 22 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2007 Thanks Barbara. That explains it now. I had a quick look at NA for the reference number. I cant remember if there was a way to browse the records contained within MH106. Do I have to request it from the NA? Also would it likely contain a RNR serviceman be mentioned if he was taken to a hospital here in the UK for TB? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 22 April , 2007 Share Posted 22 April , 2007 Andy These are some notes I made on which Admission and Discharge registers survive at TNA in MH106. The war diaries in WO95 vary a great deal, but are not, on the whole, very likely to name men, other than if there was something out of the ordinary about them. Officers who died often get a mention, aristocratic officers are very likely to be named, dead or alive, but the run of the mill soldier tends to remain anonymous in most of them. And just to confuse you more, I thought that 1/2 London CCS was No.54 CCS, with it's war diary in WO95/563 [sorry Barbara, but these 1/2s and 2/1s etc. I find really confusing, especially as the 'Locations' booklet doesn't seem to have them all present or correct either - would be glad to have a rock solid definitive list, as I'm probably wrong ] Anyway, here's the list: The following units are those for which Admission and Discharge registers survive at the National Archives in MH106. In total there are 2078 of these registers, and the number includes some operation books, and miscellaneous registers. These registers cover units in most theatres – Western Front, Egypt, Salonika, Serbia and Russia [1919]; some are complete, while some are for specific dates only, and as the units moved around some have records for more than one location. One of the most complete, No. 3 Casualty Clearing Station has a total of 153 registers, covering the period from September 23rd 1914 until 6th December 1918. Most units held separate registers for different nationalities, and in most cases British troops will not be combined with those, say, from Canada or India. Officers details are normally held in different registers from other ranks. The registers for hospitals in the UK, i.e. Napsbury, Millbank, Craiglockhart, Catterick, are kept both in date order, and separately for each theatre of war in which the men had served prior to admission. 14th Field Ambulance 51st Field Ambulance 66th Field Ambulance 139th Field Ambulance 149th Field Ambulance No. 3 Casualty Clearing Station No. 11 Casualty Clearing Station No. 31 Casualty Clearing Station No. 34 Casualty Clearing Station No. 34 Combined Casualty Clearing Station No. 39 Casualty Clearing Station No. 82 Casualty Clearing Station Bakharitza Detention Hospital 2nd General Hospital 18th General Hospital 19th General Hospital [Alexandria] 28th General Hospital 85th General Hospital 4th Stationary Hospital County of Middlesex War Hospital, Napsbury Queen Alexandra Military Hospital, Millbank Mrs. Mitchison’s Hospital for officers Catterick Military Hospital Craiglockhart Hospital, Edinburgh Eccles Auxiliary Hospital Bowhill Auxiliary Hospital, Selkirk (officers) Lennel Auxiliary Hospital (officers) Coldstream Mains (officers) Craiglea Annexe, Edinburgh (officers) H.M. Hospital Ship ‘Assaye’ No. 31 Ambulance Train Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 22 April , 2007 Share Posted 22 April , 2007 The County of Middlesex, Napsbury, War Hospital documents at NA are very interesting. The Admission and Discharge registers survive as does a large number of individual medical sheets. Some of the latter are detailed case histories of the wounded and the ill, including the circumstances of being injuried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandabean Posted 22 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2007 Thanks for that Sue. Sadly the person I am looking for was a private and unlikely to be mentioned in the war diary. I was hoping the registers would of some help but as none exist for the 1/2 Casualty Clearing Station then thats another idea out the window. Just out of curiosty is there any pictures of clearing stations just to get an idea of what they were like. Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 22 April , 2007 Share Posted 22 April , 2007 ... snip, snip . . . Just out of curiosty is there any pictures of clearing stations just to get an idea of what they were like. Thanks, Andy There are a number of photos on-line at the Canadian Archives. Most were taken at Nos. 10, 2 Cdn. and 3 Cdn. at Remy Siding in the Salient. This link was found by searching on 'Casualty Clearing'. Although the War Diaries seldom mentions names of individual casualties, exceptions occur. For example, this sample from the diary of No 3 (Cdn) CCS at Remy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 22 April , 2007 Share Posted 22 April , 2007 Sue I really do not mind you picking me up if the information doesn't appear correct and in this case you were right to do so. When I did a search last night on the 1/2nd London CCS I read that the number 54 previously belonged to 54th (1/1st East Anglian) CCS redesignated 66 CCS. With that in mind I went to my list of war diary references and found that No 54 CCS has two - one for Europe and one for Egypt. When trying to sort out which one was the right one I went to number 58 for some silly reason, so I really do apologise for any confusion caused. I hadn't really studied the CCS list on the Long Long Trail before because I already have that list and information put together by my father. I've just had a quick look at it now and it appears that the omissions are the ones that served in Italy/Gallipoli and the ones that may not be correct are the ones that changed number. Also, No 11 CCS, for example, served in Gallipoli from March 15 - Jan 19 then went to Egypt Feb 16 - March 16 and then onto Europe April 16 - Sept 19, the CCS list makes it look as if it only served in Europe. I know you have a special interest in CCSs so I can put together a list for you if that will help. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandabean Posted 22 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2007 Thanks James. Is someone on the forum likely to have the war diarys at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 22 April , 2007 Share Posted 22 April , 2007 Also would it likely contain a RNR serviceman be mentioned if he was taken to a hospital here in the UK for TB? Thanks, Andy Andy I am not sure if I have read your queston right, it would list him if he had entered this unit regardless of any other unit he went into but a Casualty Clearing Station A&D Book would not tell you which hospital a casualty was sent to in the UK, this is because a casualty was passed through an evacuation chain. Transfer information into a CCS is likely to state a Field Ambulance and transfer information out of a CCS is likely to state an Ambulance Train. An Ambulance Train would take the casualty to a Stationery or General Hospital, they would then board a Hospital Ship before reaching a hospital at home, these were all different Units with their own A & D Books. A war diary might provide some clues, as Sue explains, if there was something out of the ordinary about them and/or if you are aware of dates. For example, No 4 CCS on the 11th October 1914 reads, 'Fine sunny day. Not many wounded or sick arriving. Three suspected cases of Enteric Fever. Most of the cases came from the 2nd Divn. Evacuating to No 6 ambulance train' The next thing to research is which hospitals the ambulance trains were taking the casualties to, and so on. Not the easiest thing to research. I really do apologise for giving you the wrong CCS No and reference No to the war diaries. A silly mistake that could have sent you on a wild goose chase. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie Posted 23 April , 2007 Share Posted 23 April , 2007 I found the Canadian archival photographs link fascinating. Thank you for that new site. However, the photos of the CCS surprise me. I had always assumed that a CCS was a rather heath-robinson affaire designed to deal with casualties and clear them away to hospitals. These photographs - July 1916 - show well set up buidlings, good beds, most empty, lots of staff, solid walls etc. Were these the very best and hence in the photographs or were all CCS actualy quite substantial 'health providers' and not only providing rush jobs to send casualties off somwhere else ? Kathie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 23 April , 2007 Share Posted 23 April , 2007 Kathie I think one of the great myths is that Casualty Clearing Stations and Field Ambulance were ramshackle places, often not much more than a scrape in the mud - and there's is a wealth of complete rubbish on the Internet that promotes these ideas. In fact they were, for their time, highly professional units, and I would say that those photographs are completely typical. In the first eighteen months or so of the war, virtually all CCSs were opened in buildings - schools, asylums, factories etc. - rather than under canvas, with the medical and nursing staff in billets nearby if more accommodation was needed. And by the time that larger units were needed, the Army had become expert at the quick construction of huts - Colonel Nissen's wonderful invention [together with Armitage, Adrian and others] transformed the sites, so the the totally tented CCS was not that common. Of course, the units, to some extent, were only as good at their CO and Sister in charge, but many of the more permanent ones were like mini-hospitals, and in addition had flower beds, lawns and vegetable gardens. There must have been times when life was chaotic, with thousands of men passing through daily, surgery 24 hours a day, and mud being deposited everywhere. During winter time some CCSs closed to battle casualties and took in men needing rest and convalescence, and those suffering from winter illnesses and infectious diseases. At these times they must have been relaxed places. But as military units, they were always striving for the best conditions and care for the men possible, with very regular inspections carried out by both senior medical officers and the Matron-in-Chief to ensure that aim was achieved. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 23 April , 2007 Share Posted 23 April , 2007 I hadn't really studied the CCS list on the Long Long Trail before because I already have that list and information put together by my father. I've just had a quick look at it now and it appears that the omissions are the ones that served in Italy/Gallipoli and the ones that may not be correct are the ones that changed number. Barbara The list on the Long, Long Trail, and the original publication from which it's taken only relates to the B.E.F. - it would certainly be useful to have some details of the units in other theatres, but my present research only relates to France and Flanders, so I'm not in desperate need [well, other than for money ] But the 'Locations...' booklet definitely does have some errors and omissions, particularly in respect of the hospitals, rather that the CCSs, and I'm putting together a list with some corrections as I come across them. Probably another pointless job in life, but pleasing to the pedantic mind Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhill Posted 23 April , 2007 Share Posted 23 April , 2007 I found the Canadian archival photographs link fascinating. Thank you for that new site. However, the photos of the CCS surprise me. I had always assumed that a CCS was a rather heath-robinson affaire designed to deal with casualties and clear them away to hospitals. These photographs - July 1916 - show well set up buidlings, good beds, most empty, lots of staff, solid walls etc. Were these the very best and hence in the photographs or were all CCS actualy quite substantial 'health providers' and not only providing rush jobs to send casualties off somwhere else ? Kathie You are right to question this. In fact, I believe these photos were mostly taken during a press circus perhaps organized by Lord Beaverbrook (Sir Max Aitken then). All units would have been warned that ofiicial photographers were coming, and we would expect they put their best feet forward. That being said, the pictures are probably quite accurate, and even typical. This was not a particularly busy time in the Salient (relatively speaking!). As you point out, The CCS evacuated casualties to base as soon as possible, so there may not have been many still at Remy. In the static warfare of the day, most CCSs had months in one place and became well established. The establishment of No 3 Cdn CCS at Remy can be traced through their diary. They arrived on 2nd April, 1916 at an uncompleted site containing six huts. By the last week of April they had 15 buildings, the nursing sisters had arrived and the flower beds planted. The last week was spent on such things as painting, installing furniture, and testing the X-Ray equipment. They admitted their first casualties on 9th May. The telephone would not be installed for a few weeks, though. In open warfare, a CCS could be set up completely in tents in a much shorter time. This happened, but was not the norm until much later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 23 April , 2007 Share Posted 23 April , 2007 Barbara The list on the Long, Long Trail, and the original publication from which it's taken only relates to the B.E.F. - it would certainly be useful to have some details of the units in other theatres, but my present research only relates to France and Flanders, so I'm not in desperate need [well, other than for money ] But the 'Locations...' booklet definitely does have some errors and omissions, particularly in respect of the hospitals, rather that the CCSs, and I'm putting together a list with some corrections as I come across them. Probably another pointless job in life, but pleasing to the pedantic mind Sue Sue Not pointless at all. What I think is pointless is just accepting what your told or taking information at face value, never questioning if it is actually correct or not. I have noticed that some hospitals and CCS moved about more than the location booklet states but I'm only a novice and not certain enough to comment. I have been thinking of putting the Unit locations I have onto my website, if I ever get my database working properly that is. Maybe when you have completed your work you could check mine out for me. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanpeter1 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 When No 39 CCS moved to Italy in 1917, where was it located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 6 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Has the diary been digitised? Is it currently free to download from the national archives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrmh Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 10 minutes ago, RussT said: Has the diary been digitised? Is it currently free to download from the national archives? It appears not: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557360 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 6 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 6 May , 2020 That's a shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 6 May , 2020 Admin Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Here's the final page of the diary whilst in Belgium - perhaps it has some clues in it. Image courtesy of the National Archives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 A snapshot. Pte GA Pickard died in 39 CCS 9 Sep 1918. He is buried in Montecchio Precalcino Communal Cemetery Extension. The cemetery details mention burials from 9th, 24th and 39th CCS Apr 1918 to Feb 1919 here or at Dueville. From CWGC details for Dueville: From April 1918 to the early months of 1919, the 9th, 24th and 39th Casualty Clearing Stations occupied the village school at Dueville and used the extension to the communal cemetery for the burial of those who died of wounds or disease. Pte Parker 8 KOYLI died 17 Dec 1917 39 CCS and is buried in Giavera British Cemetery Arcade Pte Gregory RWK died 39 CCS 7 Feb 1918 also buried Giavera Suggests the earlier deployment of 39 CCS south of the Piave and a later move to Dueville. Clues from the Soldiers Effects register cross referenced to CWGC. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelpi Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Nos. 24 and 39 C.C.Ss., on arrival in Italy, remained parked at Citadella, on the railway line between Vicenza and Treviso, ready to move forward when the British troops took over a front line. Istrana, some twelve miles west of Treviso, was then selected as the best strategical position for casualty clearing stations, and Nos. 24 and 39 C.C.Ss. were placed there early in December. Thank you Medical Services General History, Vol III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 That makes sense in that Giavera British Cemetery (the earlier burials) is only 11 miles north of Istrana. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanpeter1 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Many thanks to all who replied to my question re location of 39 CSS. It was a lead up to my next question as to whether there are any War Diaries covering Royal Army Service Corps Companies 190 - 193 who were attached to 23rd Division in 1917 - 18. The 39 CSS records refer to a patient Sgt J. F.. McDonnell who belonged to 23rd Division Royal Army Service Corps - General Headquarters Reserve Motor Transport Company. I have found references to WO/95 4812, 3894, 4457 and 4954, but the National Archives titles do not include 'Italy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrmh Posted 7 May , 2020 Share Posted 7 May , 2020 Not yet digitised: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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