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Remembered Today:

39 Division - Uniform Patches


Tom A McCluskey

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Hi All,

Does anyone have information on the Battle Insignia worn by 39 Division, or even better photographs of soldiers from 39 Division, please displaying any Divisional or Unit insignia? I believe Edmund Blunden served in the 11th Royal Sussex. Anyway, below listed are the main fighting units and sub-units:

116th Brigade

11th (Service) Bn (1st South Down), the Royal Sussex Regiment

12th (Service) Bn (2nd South Down), the Royal Sussex Regiment

13th (Service) Bn (3rd South Down), Royal Sussex Regiment

14th (Service) Bn (1st Portsmouth), Hampshire Regiment

116th Company, Machine Gun Corps

116th Trench Mortar Battery

117th Brigade

16th (Service) Bn (Chatsworth Rifles), Sherwood Foresters

17th (Service) Bn (Welbeck Rangers), Sherwood Foresters

17th (Service) Bn (British Empire League), King's Royal Rifle Corps

16th (Service) Bn (St. Pancras), Rifle Brigade

117th Company, Machine Gun Corps

117th Trench Mortar Battery

118th Brigade

1/6th Bn, Cheshire Regiment

4/5th Bn, Black Watch

1/1st Bn, Cambridgeshire Regiment

1/1st Bn, Hertfordshire Regiment

118th Company, Machine Gun Corps

118th Trench Mortar Battery

Divisional Pioneers

13th (Service) Bn (Forest of Dean) (Pioneers), Gloucester Regiment

Artillery

CLXXIV Bde RFA

CLXXIX Bde RFA

CLXXXIV Bde RFA

CLXXXVI (H) Brigade RFA.

(CLXXXIV broken up 30 November 1916)

(CLXXIX broken up on 18 January 1917)

39 Divisional Ammunition Column RFA

V.39 Heavy Trench Mortar Battery RFA

X.39, Y.39 and Z.39 Medium Mortar Batteries RFA

Any help, Much Appreciated

Aye

Tom McC

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Hi All,

Does anyone have information on the Battle Insignia worn by 39 Division, or even better photographs of soldiers from 39 Division, please displaying any Divisional or Unit insignia? I believe Edmund Blunden served in the 11th Royal Sussex. Anyway, below listed are the main fighting units and sub-units:

116th Brigade

11th (Service) Bn (1st South Down), the Royal Sussex Regiment

12th (Service) Bn (2nd South Down), the Royal Sussex Regiment

13th (Service) Bn (3rd South Down), Royal Sussex Regiment

14th (Service) Bn (1st Portsmouth), Hampshire Regiment

116th Company, Machine Gun Corps

116th Trench Mortar Battery

117th Brigade

16th (Service) Bn (Chatsworth Rifles), Sherwood Foresters

17th (Service) Bn (Welbeck Rangers), Sherwood Foresters

17th (Service) Bn (British Empire League), King's Royal Rifle Corps

16th (Service) Bn (St. Pancras), Rifle Brigade

118th Brigade

1/6th Bn, Cheshire Regiment

4/5th Bn, Black Watch

1/1st Bn, Cambridgeshire Regiment

1/1st Bn, Hertfordshire Regiment

118th Company, Machine Gun Corps

118th Trench Mortar Battery

Divisional Pioneers

13th (Service) Bn (Forest of Dean) (Pioneers), Gloucester Regiment

Artillery

CLXXIV Bde RFA

CLXXIX Bde RFA

CLXXXIV Bde RFA

CLXXXVI (H) Brigade RFA.

(CLXXXIV broken up 30 November 1916)

(CLXXIX broken up on 18 January 1917)

39 Divisional Ammunition Column RFA

V.39 Heavy Trench Mortar Battery RFA

X.39, Y.39 and Z.39 Medium Mortar Batteries RFA

Any help, Much Appreciated

Aye

Tom McC

Hi, the 16th Battn. Sherwood Foresters wore a black square on a green square, I have a photo of a S/Forester showing it. The 17th Battn. Sherwood's wore a black diamond on a half circle.

John

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Hi, I've missed a bit, 17th Battn Sherwood's was a green diamond on a green half circle. John

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John,

That's great, and many thanks for the information,

Aye

Tom McC

Hi Tom, I will get this right in a bit, 17th Sherwoods, black diamond on a green half circle. John

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I don't have the time to do it this weekend, but if no-one else answers this query I will look this information up in Major John Waring's pamphlet some time next week.

If he is about I am sure that Paul Reed can help you re "Lowthers Lambs" - The Southdown Battalions of the Royal Sussex.

According to Wheeler-Holohan's "Divisional & Other Signs" the actual 39th Division sign was a white square with three vertical stripes in Eton blue.

In this 1920 work he says: "The most careful enquiries have thrown no light on it's origin; and, as the designer* is dead, it is possible its history will never be known."

* The late General Barnardiston.

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Tom,

16th Bn Sherwood Foresters(Chatsworth Rifles) wore a patch consisting of a black rectangle inside a lincoln green square, I have a picture of it being worn by Cpl Egerton VC 16th Bn.

regards

Mark

John,

List amended,

Aye

Tom McC

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Tom,

It's certainly on his upper left arm, as the picture is taken with the left in profile to show of his VC!

regards

Mark

Beppo & Mark,

Much appreciated, thanks!

Mark is the patch on his arm?

Aye

Tom McC

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Hi Tom,

Have the following information:

116th Brigade

11th (Service) Bn (1st South Down), the Royal Sussex Regiment:

Felt strip blue/red/blue.

12th (Service) Bn (2nd South Down), the Royal Sussex Regiment:

Felt strip blue/red/blue/red/blue.

13th (Service) Bn (3rd South Down), Royal Sussex Regiment:

Felt strip blue/red/blue/red/blue/red/blue.

14th (Service) Bn (1st Portsmouth), Hampshire Regiment:

Felt triangle 2½ ins base with 2in sides left half yellow right half black.

117 Bde

17th (Service) Bn (British Empire League), King's Royal Rifle Corps:

Felt green inverted semi circle with central black disc.

16th (Service) Bn (St. Pancras), Rifle Brigade:

Felt green inverted semi circle with central black embroidered Maltese cross.

118th Brigade

1/6th Bn, Cheshire Regiment:

Felt black diamond with smaller red central diamond.

1/1st Bn, Hertfordshire Regiment:

Felt purple heart !

Regards

Arthur

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I can confirm that the Cambs Rgt had a battle patch.

The first pattern was a square of Camb University blue with a thin black vertical stripe. The black stripe signified the Rifle Brigade (the unit of the co, Lt-Col Ted Riddell). The black strip was labelled the "bar sinister" by one of the officers.

The second pattern was an oblong in the same colours, although the black stripe seemed to be a bit thicker.

Lot 150112929208 on ebay shows the second pattern.

I believe the 4/5th Black Watch wore a piece of Black Watch tartan, but not 100% sure on that.

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Cliff & Arthur,

Fantastic & Many Thanks,

Any pictures of troops wearing the aforementioned patches?

Aye

Tom McC

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Tom

Between this thread, and possible emails, have you got all the information you require?

If there are still any outstanding units list them in this thread and I will check Waring to see if their patch is mentioned.

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Beppo,

Only the old 4/5th BW, which I am assuming would be a bit of Government Tartan?

Aye

Tom McC

PS - Cliff, great picture of the unit insignia and identifying flag (by email)

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Beppo,

Only the old 4/5th BW, which I am assuming would be a bit of Government Tartan?

Aye

Tom McC

Tom

I will have to take a more thorough look later, as Waring is very difficult to find anything in.

At the moment I have not found 4/5th, or 4th or 5th Black Watch.

Of the five BW Battalions that I have found, none wore the Government Tartan as a flash. Unless this tartan is also known as the Atholl tartan, in which case two out of five wore it.

1st BW wore a rectangle of Atholl tartan,

1/7th BW wore two stips of dark blue

9th BW wore a black silhouette of a thistle

13th BW wore red stripes on dark blue Atholl tartan

14th BW wore a dark blue diamond, on a red square, on their back.

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1/5th South Lancs wore a black inverted tri-angle. So did 2/17th London's and 113th Machine Gun Company

Do any of those seem a likely unit from the Medal Index Cards?

If not, I will look some more. The only problem is that it takes time to find things in Waring.

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Hi Beppo !

Thank you for answering ...

the young soldier was John Crighton and there are 18 MICs for men with that name on TNA and if we include possible common alternative spellings of Creighton & Crichton the number goes up to almost 100! He was very young at the time - looking at the picture - and we think he would have reached the age for call up towards the end of the war (he was born in 1900) ..... so he maybe didn't even have an MIC !!

He may have lived in London ..... ;) and that's about all we know !

I thought the triangle was black ..... but I suppose it could have been any dark colour !

Annie

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Hi Beppo !

Thank you for answering ...

the young soldier was John Crighton and there are 18 MICs for men with that name on TNA and if we include possible common alternative spellings of Creighton & Crichton the number goes up to almost 100! He was very young at the time - looking at the picture - and we think he would have reached the age for call up towards the end of the war (he was born in 1900) ..... so he maybe didn't even have an MIC !!

He may have lived in London ..... ;) and that's about all we know !

I thought the triangle was black ..... but I suppose it could have been any dark colour !

Annie

Well, I don't know.

I have looked at your pic now. I can tell you that he is line infantry and serving in a TA Battalion.

This would have been ideal for 1/5th South Lancs, except that he is wearing tropical uniform, and they were in France with 55th Divvy.

Maybe some photographic expert can decide if the tri-angle is actually black? We could then go further - maybe. :unsure:

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Beppo,

Thanks very much. I wonder if Major Waring is getting Government Tartan confused with Murray of Atholl?

http://www.regiments.org/tradition/tartans/murray-a.htm

I have to admit, I haven't seen the 1st Bn, 4th or 5th wear any Patches - except for the 4th at Loos: Red Square on back

Anyway, cheers for the interesting information

Aye

Tom McC

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Cliff,

Received my copy of the Cambridgeshires (1914 to 1919). The cover was a bit of a giveaway (concerning Regimental Patch) :) :

The blue is lighter, on the real book.

Anyway, off for a read

Aye

Tom McC

post-10175-1177506089.jpg

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Beppo,

Thanks very much. I wonder if Major Waring is getting Government Tartan confused with Murray of Atholl?

http://www.regiments.org/tradition/tartans/murray-a.htm

I have to admit, I haven't seen the 1st Bn, 4th or 5th wear any Patches - except for the 4th at Loos: Red Square on back

Anyway, cheers for the interesting information

Aye

Tom McC

Tom

Tartans all look the same to me too! unsure.gif

I finished looking at Waring for cloth badges worn by the BW.

Still no sign of 4/5th, or 4th or 5th Black Watch. He does not cover everything, only what he had or heard about.

However, I did find 1/6th BW, which was a dark blue braid rectangle 2 and a half inches by three quarters of an inch. Not 100% sure of the last dimension, the pamphlet is very badly printed.

Concerning 1st BW. Waring says they wore some one inch felt squares on the collar. Green for Riflemen, yellow for Lewis Gunners, red for Bombers and black for Grenadiers. Grenadiers?

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