Hedley Malloch Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 I have heard that the Belgian Government has just given approval for a Visitors' Centre to be built at Tyne Cot to cater for the 400,000 (!!!) people who go there each year. It is to be built on land at the back of the cemetery. The two developers (one Belgian who owns the land and his UK partner) have been told that a thorough archeological investigation of the site is an absolute condition of permission. The Centre will be funded in part by the Belgian Government and there also the possibility of EU money going in, too. Anyone else heard anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 News to me, but a welcome and exciting new venture. Please keep us posted on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlotte cardoen-descamps Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 The information I have heard about this project is slightly different. It is the intention to establish a peace park with a building which should host a permanent exhibition of the involment of the Allied troops in the war. Panoramic pictures taken at the time should bring forward the bitter realityof trench life and warfare. I have been told that archeologists from all countries involved in WW I should dig the foundations of the new building together, which means a lot of organisation work . As far as I know it is not the intention to provide anything to drink or eat there. I'll keep you updated as soon as I hear more about it. Charlotte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 This news saddens me....... The town of Ieper is within sight of this cemetry and memorial to those who died and rightly the place is in the middle of the old battlefield and now the middle of nowwhere. This is how it should stay, I recently visited the cemetery to mark the 85th anniversary of my Great Uncle's death, CH/1813 (S) Private Reuben Roper 2nd Royal Marine Light Infantry on 26th October 1917 and who has no known grave. Tyne Cot is a spellbinding place and truly moving, if you wish to know more about the war and the local area then visit the Cloth Hall to see the Ypres Museum or any of the local museums that are in the area. To me this is just cynical commercialism and nothing to do with remembrance or education. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 January , 2003 Share Posted 9 January , 2003 Hi Andrew, Nice to hear from you again ! Feeling "saddened" at this "cynical commercialisation" ? Please don't panic. If I had not known you better, I would have thought (again) : What's the matter with some of you across the Channel ?! As soon as you hear about things like that happening in the Ypres area, it is as if that huge conspiracy monster against the Remembrance of the Great War in the Ypres area is sticking up its ugly head again. Sorry, can't help it : sounds a bit like paranoia. I live in the area and I don't spot any monsters. Well, to come to the point. This is my information about these Tyne Cot Cemetery plans. To be added to what Charlotte has already written. It is the intention to create a parking lot behind (BEHIND !) the cemetery, for approx. 6 coaches and a sanitary block. Visitors will be welcomed in a pavillion next to the cemetery. Low roof, and integrated in the garden or park, offering a view, through a glass wall, on the Salient towards Ypres. From this pavillion, duckboards will lead to the front side of the cemetery and to the main entrance. Low bushes and plants, to keep the view open. Maybe just a few solitary trees. The aim is to solve the car chaos which can often be disturbing near Tyne Cot Cemetery, particularly at the front side. And to give tourists a better welcome. Cafetaria ? Souvenir shop ? No way !... Totally out of the question. So, Andrew, calm down. No cynical commercialisation. Hope this will set your mind at ease. Believe me, some people in Ypres have good intentions ... Aurel Sercu Boezinge - Ypres www.diggers.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 10 January , 2003 Share Posted 10 January , 2003 Aurel, Thanks for your detailed explanation of what's planned. I am sure this will put a lot of peoples minds at rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 10 January , 2003 Share Posted 10 January , 2003 If this development removes the coaches from the lane in front of the cemetery, and means I can actually get at this cemetery when I need to, I am all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 10 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2003 A couple of points. First, if there are 400,000 visitors a year (a good sign I would have thought) in a place the size of Tyne Cot there's going to be problems or car parking and physical wear and tear on hot spots like the entrance with its artificial grass. We can all see this now. Second, there is a question of ambience and atmosphere: quiet, dignity and solemnity become increasingly difficult to maintain with greater numbers of visitors. A visitors' centre could help manage these problems: it will help take the pressure of numbers off the cemetery and relieve the car parking problem which is a source of tension between the locals and the mainly British visitors. Look to history. Some of the medieval cathederals which housed shrines and relics had the same problem in the middle ages. All these pilgirims turning up from far and wide wanting to see St.Cuthbert's tomb or the Piece of the True Cross. They had to wait for hours to get in and got up to all sorts of mischief (graffiti, fights, bonding activities with pilgrims of the opposite sex behind the High Altar) totally out of keeping with the dignity of the place. To solve the problem the church authorities built extra chapels and things to see like stained glass windows. Some of these are now recognised as national treasures and glories of medieval architecture - but they were built as what a modern tourist manager would call 'an overflow facility'. So it's not necessarily bad news. As I have remarked elsewhere, sometimes it is difficult to say what they mean at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 10 January , 2003 Share Posted 10 January , 2003 Ok, Ok....... I'm beating a hasty retreat. Jumped in with both feet, flew off the handle, opened my mouth before engaging my brain and all the others. Yes, Aurel you do know me better and I should have known the Belgium people better, sorry. From my limited experience the memorials and Rememberance in Belgium is something to be proud of and I am sure that anything that will be done will be done for benefit and not anything else, again sorry. As you can see from my earlier posting I have a personal interest in this cemetery as do thousands of others and with all things personal sometimes our judgement becomes clouded. leaving now.... Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 I'm all for a tastful, low profile upgrade to the site. A coach parking lot behind the Cem. is a great and wise idea. It will help presurve the view from the Cem. towards Ypres, which as many of you know is often interupted by coaches and will make the area safer. Just this past 11 Nov a coach got stuck at Tyne Cot as it tried to turn around. This had a very bad impact on peoples ability to visit the site all afternoon. A "real" coach parking area would have prevented that. To stray just a little from the subject. As a Yank I have found that unlike many US sites many in Europe lack a visitor centers on or near by that tell the story of what transpired there. I know many countries are not as fortunate as mine to have an agency like the National Park Service to maintain and tell the story of their histroric or cultural sites but thats just the way it is. It's not bad just different and differences do keep things intresting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 You express surprise at the lack of visitor centres compared to the trend in the USA. It is only during the last 10-15 years that large numbers of people have started visiting the battlefields, prior to that there was no real need for visitor centres. I can remember visiting the battlefields in the 1960's when you were unlikely to meet anyone else, and entries in the cemetery registers were few and far between. In response to the growing numbers of people, visitor centres have been appearing in recent years at the more popular destinations including Delville Wood, Newfoundland Memorial Park, Vimy Ridge. Thiepval and now it seems Tyne Cot are to be added to these. As others have said it is an inevitable response to growing visitor numbers and in terms of parking and impact on the local community, particularly hygiene, it is becoming an essential requirement. Anybody who has ever taken a coach party on a battlefield tour will understand the logistical problems of planning sufficient comfort stops into the program! The mind boggles at the thought of a site attracting 400,000 visitors a year with no facilities. If buildings are going to be erected it makes sense to combine them with information centres. The centres refered to above are, in my opinion tatefully done and thankfully avoid over commercialism. Long may this last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 Just a bit off the beaten track this one, but i seem to recall that in the 1930's, an enterprising "old soldier",ex D.C.L.I i think, ran a cafe called the Prince of Wales on Thiepval ridge. With the advent of the visitor centre, "what goes around, comes around"! Regards, Chris Noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 11 January , 2003 Share Posted 11 January , 2003 Andrew I wouldnt be to concerned - the Visitors Centres at Newfoundland Park and Vimy Ridge have been valuable additions, and I am sure elsewhere too. If it is the archealogical excavation that concerns you then its worth remembering that archealogy is one of the best ways we can learn about what actually happened. The Visitors Centre will (hopefully) be a great stimulation for the thousands of children that visit Tyne Cot to take an interest in what happened on the Western Front during 1914-18, and this will help keep the collective memory of the likes of brave men such as Reuben Roper alive for further generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 12 January , 2003 Share Posted 12 January , 2003 I was relieved to read Aurel's explanation of what exactly the Visitor centre will entail. My inclination is to let the place speak for itself but I appreciate the need to do something about the traffic chaos, and put the site into some sort of context for those not familiar with CWGC cemeteries and their iconography. The wear and tear at Tyne Cot has become very visible in the last five years. Of course improved facilities might induce what I call the 'M25 syndrome' and trigger a further increase in visitor numbers, possibly swamping the new facility. To get back onto one of my hobby horses would it be an idea to try and route more coach parties away from the well-trodden 'circuit' of Tyne Cot, Essex Farm, Sanctuary Wood etc to the scores of less visited but equally interesting cemeteries and memorials in the Salient? Despite the best efforts of guides like Paul Reed, Tom Morgan etc and books like the Battleground Europe series my subjective impression is that most organised tours stick to the obvious few sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 12 January , 2003 Share Posted 12 January , 2003 One of the main reasons for that Mark, is that commercial tour operators have to make a profit; and the genesis of their business is that 'big names' sell - so they apply that to WW1 tours as well. Thus the same old places... Another reason is that the travel business is very cut-throat, and many operators simply copy another's itinerary; it's no accident that the busy days in Ypres in recent years are Tuesday and Saturday, the days which we visit with Leger, because all the other big names just copy what we are doing! Another aspect to remember is that few big name operators have enthusiasts running their tours - so it would never enter their minds to explore places like the Bluff, Gheluvelt, or even further afield... the Hindenburg Line. However, whenever we have experimented with this, we have always found plenty of willing passengers... so perhaps its just laziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 From a school tour perspective: I'm currently contacting/visiting schools which are due to tour this year, making arrangements to talk to students and parents but most importantly at this stage, to discuss the teachers' educational objectives and plan itineraries to suit. I go armed with details of local casualties, places where local battalions were in action, cemeteries where local lads are buried and so on. These suggestions for places to visit are well-received, and schools have usually researched local connections of their own, which they want me to incorporate. Focussing on events, people and places which have a local connection is important, but teachers also want their students to see the "big pictures" of the war and so we visit the Lochnagar Crater, Hill 60 and, of course, Tyne Cot Cemetery. They are "must see" places certainly, but there are educational reasons for going there also, with planned outcomes. Paul Reed has mentioned the commercial aspect. Companies who provide tours are selling a "product". Customers know what they expect a product to essentially consist of, so providers include these essentials. In terms of battlefield visiting, this means places like Tyne Cot. If a tour goes well, and the leaders felt that it achieved all that they wanted, they will want to visit again the following year with a different group of students, but they will often want exactly the same "product" again. (This isn't a complaint - I like tying in WW1 studies to a local connection but I never tire of introducing students, almost always first-time visitors, to the "usual" sites.) However, "what people expect" is a changing thing, and little changes lead to big changes. In 2002, for the first time, I guided a school which DIDN'T want to visit Sanctuary Wood Trench Museum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 14 January , 2003 Share Posted 14 January , 2003 Well we are an adult group but when I drew up the itinerary for our WFA USA tour in April I did not include the Sanctuary Wood Museum. Some of them will skin me for it and I do believe the trenches are real though obviously have been maintained, just think there are many better places to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 It has to be remembered that a lot of people on coach tours are visiting the battlefields for the first time and many of the tours may only be visiting the battlefields for a couple of hours on the way home from somewhere like Paris or further a field. This is especially the case at Vimy Ridge as it is so close to the motorway. I think this is great as it may serve as an introduction that will lead to a much keener interest at a later date for some. A lot of people question why people always visit the same old places, 1st July 1916 trenches etc. It's only natural to start with what you are aware of and know the most about and most people who are just starting to take an interest will know and have read all about places like Ypres and the Somme. The natural way of things is that after a period of time and perhaps a few more visits you branch out into other areas. Tyne Cot and Thiepval will always be high on first time visitors lists of places to visit and that is why I'm all for visitor centres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 I quite agree Alan. A car/coach park at the back will allow everyone to better appreciate the vast sweep of this special place, and a vistor centre can provide facilities to educate. A toilet block would be welcome too, for those of us who are often on the lookout for the nearest secluded spot!! I don't know who will 'own' this site, but is there an opportunity here for the CWGC to do a little approriate retailing for its coffers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 15 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2003 ... (snip) ... is there an opportunity here for the CWGC to do a little approriate retailing for its coffers? You are opening up new ground here, Kate! What retailing do you think would be 'appropriate' for the CWGC? It's hard to think of anything beyond registers. And as Terry Denham has so ably demonstrated they don't really know how to sell those. Maybe the odd post card, perhaps? I don't know. What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 In my opinion the concept of the CWGC entering into any form of retailing from the larger sites and memorials would be a retrograde and very dangerous step towards making the cemetries tourist attractions for the wrong reasons. There is a very thin line between their being places of pilgrimage or historical interest, and entertainment sites for the ghoulish. With the growing public interest in the Great War the danger of that line being crossed is increasing all the time. Inspite of growing numbers of visitors the cemeteries remain places of remembrance and dignity. This must be preserved at all costs. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 This morning at 8am, I plodded along the long path to Gwalia Cemetery near Poperinge. The wind felt about minus 15 degrees C. The path was flooded with icy water. If the CWGC had had a tea stall there, I would have bought a cup, and to hell with my strongly-held beliefs that such retailing at these places of sacred memory would be crass and insulting beyond belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Chris, I'm disappointed in you. There you were with an opportunity to feel like the occupants of the ground some 80-odd years ago felt, and all you were thinking about was tea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 Hang on a minute, chaps! Anyone who collects postcards or sifted through local newspapers will know that 'pilgrimages' started soon after the war, were conducted with decorum and included plenty of banter and sing-songs, and pilgrims (presumably) made use of toilet facilities, enjoyed a beer or two, and bought postcards (where available) of the cemeteries where their loved ones were at rest. I have plenty of such postcards, and here is an opportunity for the CGWC to sell those, maps, various information sheets and other of the publications it has produced over the years (for instance, those big red volumes that were so lavishly illustrated - I forget the title). I'm not suggesting retail outlets everywhere (Heaven forbid) but at a major site such as Tyne Cot, surely tea, pee, and a few pcs would not offend. It seems acceptable at Delville Wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 15 January , 2003 Share Posted 15 January , 2003 I've already voted in favour of a pee. Tea.....(& scones)? Maybe. I have to admit that I have used, and been grateful for, the facilities at Delville Wood. It's just that I feel very great care needs to be excercised with any form of commercialism, to avoid getting onto the slippery slope of the Western Front becoming yet another Theme Park. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now