7th & 8th Bns Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi all,

I was wondering if one of the pals had details of what occured on the 28th June 1915? Both the 7th & 8th Cameronians lost a lot of men on this day, whilst serving in the Dardanelles with the 52nd Scottish Division.

Any help, much appreciated

Aye

Tom McC

[barrieduncan]

Tom - I'm home from work early today so I don't have everything to hand - but I'm thinking this might have been the attack on Gully Ravine?

I'll be able to supply war diary entries etc tomorrow if its not too urgent.

Barrie

[Tom A McCluskey]

Barrie,

That's great, no desperate rush, I think my Great Granny's brother was killed on this day, John Halliday - possibly 8th Cameronians.

Again, many thanks for the reply and assistance much appreciated.

Aye

Tom McC

[barrieduncan]

Hi Tom

Here are the war diary entries for the 7th and 8th covering the attack on the 28th June, 1915 (it was near Gully Ravine at least )

7th Bn

28th June

Attack. Battn. in Bde Reserve. Battalion provided fatigue parties nearly all night of 27th-28th (See Appendix I & II) bringing up ammunition to forward S.A.A. “Dumps”. Parties were also detailed to bring up scaling ladders & planks of timber from GULLY RAVINE to the forward trenches. One of these parties under CAPT. R. JOHNSTONE was caught in the Ravine by enemy shrapnel shell-fire & suffered 3 casualties (wounded). At 11am however, the Battalion was in its allotted position. Soon after 11am the Batt. was sent forward to reinforce the assaulting party & their local reserves who had failed to capture the whole of their objective. 3 Platoons of “A” Coy & 2 Platoons of “D” Coy charged, gaining their objective in the Turks front line, part of H12a, “A” Coy with scarcely a casualty though “D” Coy suffered heavily from rifle, machine gun & shrapnel fire. Later, “B” Coy charged to take H12, but were caught by a battery of Turkish machine guns situated in their support lines behind H12 & only 50 men survived. LIEUT. COLONEL J.B. WILSON was killed while leading “B” Coy in the charge. Posted as missing, but his body was recovered some months later & buried behind our lines. During the day many attempts were made by the remainder of 7th Sco. Rif. the Royal Scots & the Reserves of 29th Division (5th Royal Scots), to advance up a sap to H12a, but every attempt failed owing to shallowness of trench & enfilade machine gun fire. BRIGADIER GENERAL SCOTT-MONCRIEFF was killed in one of these attempts to push up the sap. PTE. R. SNEDDON “A” Coy rendered valuable service by carrying important messages to & from the captured trench. He had to cross over 100 yds. open ground under heavy rifle fire. He was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. 2ND LIEUT E. WATSON was awarded the Military Cross for his work on this date. About 2am. 29th June those of the Batt. in the captured trenches were relieved by Hampshires & Essex & withdrawn to the Reserve Lines. Batt. reorganised.

8th Bn

28th June

1 machine under Lieut E MACLAY was with No.1.Coy with orders to advance along with H.Q. up the Bomb Sap. 1 machine gun under 2nd Lt R. HUMBLE was brigaded with Captain PATTISON at the “Kink” in the firing line. Bombardment commenced & lasted until 11.00. At 10.50 Rapid Artillery. M.G. & Rifle fire was opened by the Turks on our front line trenches. Some casualties were caused by the artillery fire in the support trenches.

At 10.30 1 platoon of No.2. Coy reinforced No.3. Coy in the firing line.

Nos 1 & 3 Coys went over the parapet No.1 closely followed by No.4 Coy.

No.2. Coy simultaneously dashed over the support trench parapet & suffered heavy casualties before it reached the firing line. A few men of the Bn reached the Turkish trench, the remainder were caught by M.G. fire from Right front. MAJOR FINDLAY C.O. & the Adjutant advanced with the supporting party up the communication trench & were both shot. LT STOUT signalling officer also went up this sap & was killed while endeavouring to help

Major FINDLAY.

Lieut G.A.C. MOORE led a bombing party up H.12. on the right & 2nd Lieut ROBERTSON up the sap. The M.G. under Lieut MACLAY took up a position in the sap & the other gun took up position at the junction of H12 & Firing Line.

This gun was under Cpl MILLER as 2nd Lt HUMBLE had been wounded.

At this time the Bn attack was seen to have failed owing to the TURKS M.G.s not having been adequately shelled. Men began to dribble back to the fire trench. At about 11.30 the long grass between H.12. & our firing line caught fire. This probably accounts for the large number of missing. The ESSEX & HANTS took over our firing line about this time. The Battalion was relieved & spent the night in the Reserve & Support trenches.

The casualty list of officers & men is in Appendix II.

I have the appendices if anyone is interested - i'll not post them up for now to save space.

Hope that helps Tom

Barrie

[Tom A McCluskey]

Barrie,

Many Thanks for the information, and the steer on the book by Col J.M.Findlay (WITH THE 8TH SCOTTISH RIFLES 1914-1919). Wife doesn't know it, but the re-print by Naval & Military Press is getting invested in later on tonight . She'll be wondering how her books don't fit in the bookcase anymore

Aye

Tom McC

[Rob18]

Hi Barrie,

My great grandfather (Robert Cameron) was in the 8th Cameronians and was killed on the 28th June 1915, so it was very interesting to read what happened on the day. I know it's a longshot, but does the appendices mention private soldiers, and if so does it state what company they were in?

Also, my great uncle, Patrick Cassidy, was also in the 8th Cameronians and was killed on the 19th June 1915. Does the war diary mention what was happening on that day?

Many thanks,

Rob Cameron

[wullmackie]

Hi Rob

SDGW show 12 Officers and 307 other ranks from the 8th Bn killed 28-06-15

and 9421 P Cassidy the only Bn casualty on the19-06-15.

Wull

[barrieduncan]

According to the diary, the 19th was a pretty quiet day:

Relieved ESSEX Regiment opposite H.12. at 10.00.

A quiet day.

There were men wounded on the 14th and 15th, perhaps Cassidy was one of those and died on the 19th?

Barrie

[wullmackie]

Barrie

SDGW show Pte 9421 P Cassidy KIA 19-06-15 Gallipoli

Wull

[Rob18]

Hi Barrie and Wull,

Thanks for taking the time to look it up for me.

Rob

[barrieduncan]

Its not unusual for the diary to make no mention of someone being killed - but I find it a bit odd in this case considering that they seem to document men being killed and wounded throughout June. Perhaps SDGW made a mistake and he died of wounds, or perhaps the diary just failed to record his death - maybe a newspaper obituary would shed more light on it.

Barrie

[Guest tafski]

just for infomy great uncle D macallister 8th batt KIA 15/06/1915 gallipolli

#tafski

[Tom A McCluskey]

Tafksi,

9329 Pte David McAllister is mentioned in the list of 'Other Ranks Died in the War' on page 232 of the book.

On page 25, it explains the circumstances on the 15th of June 1915:

The Battalion soon made themselves as comfortable as possible under the circumstances, and settled down to live in this sort of rabbit-warren known as Torres Lines. We were not left long undisturbed, as the Rest Camp was heavily shelled on the morning of the 15th June from Asia, the Battalion suffering several casualties.

Hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

[Guest tafski]

cheers for that tom think i will have to get some more reading materiall well xmas is just around the cornor so i am sure santa will oblige

cheers again

tafski

[Tom A McCluskey]

Rob,

There is quite a bit in the aforementioned book about this episode, pages 27-29:

On the night of the 18/19 June, 1915, the battalion relieved the Essex Battalion of the 88th Brigade of the 29th Division in the portion of trenches opposite to that part of the Turkish line called H 12 and H 12 a, which was distant from our line about 150 to 175 yards.

Along nearly all our front was a well-defined ridge running between the two lines, which, more or less, followed and hid the Turkish trenches from us, and vice versa. On our immediate right our trenches ran back, and I think also, to a certain extent, on our left, so that had defilading traverses had not been built at certain points, the portion of our trenches held by us could have been enfiladed from both flanks, as the Turkish trenches, which had once been their second or third line, conformed more or less to our alignment. The significance of this will be seen when I come to describe the action of 28th June.

I don’t think I will ever forget that move up to the trenches on the night 18/19th. One must realize that in order to relieve a battalion in the front line, the relieving unit (if it came from a Rest Camp where we were) had to move up across country in full view of the enemy as far as a place called Pink Farm, where commenced the long and deep communication trench called the Southern Mule Track. Even at that time one could have marched troops up most of it, in fours, and it was sufficiently deep to screen its contents from Turkish eyes. To arrive there with minimum casualties, however, companies had to move across the open in small parties, by half-platoons or platoons, at 50-100 yards distance, and in the evening it will be comprehended that it was very easy to lose touch with troops both in front and rear. On this occasion I was ordered to go with Nos. 1 and 2 Companies, so I pushed them off by platoons, bringing up the rear of No. 2 Company myself, with a machine-gun section under Humble. Darkness falls very quickly there, and touch was lost not only with the leading company on the way to Pink Farm but also with the front platoon of No. 2 Company. I managed to collect No. 2 Company, less its leading platoon, which had kept in touch with No. 1 Company, and we pushed on. Almost immediately, we found ourselves in Krithia Nullah, which contains a noisome, stinking, sluggish stream croaking with frogs. This, though it was too far to our right, I knew at any rate would take us up to Eski lines (our third line of resistance). A lively action seemed to be in progress on our front, and hundreds of “overs” whistled past our devoted heads. At this point, Humble, who had been carrying a machine-gun tripod for one of his men who was weak with dysentery, seemed almost played out. I relieved him of the tripod (a machine-gun tripod is no light weight to carry), and we eventually arrived scathless [sic] at the Eski Lines, and farther on, at the top of a communication trench leading to the front line, I let the men rest (and the tripod too) and pushed along to find out what was happening. I soon came across the Commanding Officer of the 5th Royal Scots, Lieut.-Col Wilson, who was himself at the front line with his battalion, on the right of 88th Brigade. A bit of a scrap was going on, and he said that he was expecting reinforcements at any moment. On the spur of the moment I offered him my Company and machine-guns. However, like a wise man he refused my offer, expecting his own reinforcements at any moment, and anyhow, he could carry on. On reflection, I what a hole my impetuous behaviour offer might have landed me in had any action been in progress on the Essex front, and had the remainder of my battalion completed their relief while I remained embroiled elsewhere. I returned to my merry(?) men, and shouldering again that infernal tripod, I took them along the trench amid the curses of the disturbed garrison, and after a last weary lap, we arrived at the Essex part of the line only to find that not one of the rest of the companies of our battalion had arrived. They had a nasty time and suffered considerable casualties before getting to the Sothern Mule Track, and the Commanding Officer, who was with No. 3 and 4 Companies had come up to No. 1 had been ordered by 88th Brigade to lie doggo [sic] and take what cover could be found until just before dawn, when they could slip into the Southern Mule Trench and proceed with the relief.

Rob, Hope this has been of use.

May I take this opportunity to thoroughly recommend this book to anyone that has an interest in the 8th Scottish Rifles. Though some of the terminology may be considered dated by today's standards the the anecdotes and descriptions of actions are tremendous, from the funny (such as the two drunk Irishmen skinny dipping at Broughty Ferry beach) to the sad (such as the losses suffered on the 28th of June 1915). Concerning which, in the Appendices, there are the correspondences between Col J M Findlay DSO, to the author Henry W Nevinson - who had claimed that the 8th Scottish Rifles did not go over the top on the 28th of June. Nevinson's very public apology is made, and the papers in which it is published is listed, along with the amendment to his book.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Rob,

At a glance, 2 of the 8th Scottish Rifles were killed on the 19th. This information I retrieved from the SNWM (Scottish National War Memorial):

CASSIDY P 9421 19/06/1915 THE CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES) Pte

LONDON J 9464 19/06/1915 THE CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES) Pte

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[Rob18]

Hi Tom,

That's great, many thanks for posting this information. Certainly looks like he must have been killed then.

Hi Barrie,

I have a copy of his obituary from the Evening Times(great as it also had a photo). It doesn't say much about how he died, but does state killed on 19th June. It was also informative as it told me he had previously been in the 2nd Scottish Rifles for 7 years before re-enlisting at the outbreak of war.

I have tried to attach the obituary for anyone who is interested.

many thanks

Rob

[Tom A McCluskey]

Rob,

No problem. Glad it builds up more of the picture. Also, thanks for the information about the other book.

Aye

Tom McC

[wullmackie]

Tom

Re 9464 London J , 19-06-15 . there must be a mistake between CWG / SNWM records

CWG show

Name: LOWDON, JOHN

Initials: J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Date of Death: 28/06/1915

Service No: 9464

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 92 to 97.

Memorial: HELLES MEMORIAL

SDGW confirms the above

Born Airlie

Enlisted Glasgow

Residence Alyth

SDGW show only Cassidy the only casualty from 8th Bn, KIA on the 19-06-1915

Wull

[Tom A McCluskey]

Wull,

Good spot . I didn't use the CWGC as a reference, and should of done. I Had a look at the back of the book and London is not mentioned in the back of it. Last time I had somethinig like this happen, I had to check the casualty register with (I think it was) the Scottish GRO.

Aye

Tom McC

[davepark]

Wull,

Good spot . I didn't use the CWGC as a reference, and should of done. I Had a look at the back of the book and London is not mentioned in the back of it. Last time I had somethinig like this happen, I had to check the casualty register with (I think it was) the Scottish GRO.

Aye

Tom McC

7 Bn Cameronians November 21 2007

I have only just identified, I hope a cousin of 2253 Wallace Park 2nd Bn Australian Infantry KIA Lone Pine 8/8/1915 and 1109 William Wallace Park 8 Bn Australian Infantry KIA Krithia 8/5/1915 and this may be 2091 William Park 7 Bn Cameronians KIA 28/6/1915 whose death is commemorated on the Helles Memorial. I have been unable to properly identify him as nowhere to date have I been able to come up with a second christian name for him. I am looking for William Simpson Park born 26/4/1882 at Maryhill Lanark. CWGC gives Williams age at 32 which is close to the 1882 birthday. Perhaps Barrie or some other interested forum participant can help with a look up of the Bn records / war diary to see if 2091 William Park is the missing cousin and if he too lost his life in the big action of 28/6/1915. I might add there is another William Park who is listed on CWGC as having lost his life on 28/6/1915. Any assistance would be most appreciated in Brisbane Queensland Australia - a long way from Rutherglen.

Dave Park

[barrieduncan]

Dave,

The Nominal Roll for the 7th Bn, taken on 8/6/1915 only lists him as W. Park, 2091 - no mention of a middle initial. The Regimental Roll of Honour does, however, give his native town as Glasgow. Maryhill is a part of Glasgow so I guess it could be your man. No mention of him in the war diary. Perhaps a death certificate would give a middle name? I think you can search these online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.

Barrie

[davepark]

Dave,

The Nominal Roll for the 7th Bn, taken on 8/6/1915 only lists him as W. Park, 2091 - no mention of a middle initial. The Regimental Roll of Honour does, however, give his native town as Glasgow. Maryhill is a part of Glasgow so I guess it could be your man. No mention of him in the war diary. Perhaps a death certificate would give a middle name? I think you can search these online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.

Barrie

Barrie,

Thanks for your help. I searched Scotlands People and the only William Park killed at Gallipoli ftom 7 Bn at the right age is this one. Unfortunately his service number is illegible and there is no second christian name. I'll put him down as "probably is"

and leave it at that. I appreciate your efforts. I noiticed the extract from the war diary for 28/6 which was most interesting. Do you have any information on what company / platoon he was in.

Dave Park

[calton]

Hi Tom

Here are the war diary entries for the 7th and 8th covering the attack on the 28th June, 1915 (it was near Gully Ravine at least )

7th Bn

28th June

Attack. Battn. in Bde Reserve. Battalion provided fatigue parties nearly all night of 27th-28th (See Appendix I & II) bringing up ammunition to forward S.A.A. “Dumps”. Parties were also detailed to bring up scaling ladders & planks of timber from GULLY RAVINE to the forward trenches. One of these parties under CAPT. R. JOHNSTONE was caught in the Ravine by enemy shrapnel shell-fire & suffered 3 casualties (wounded). At 11am however, the Battalion was in its allotted position. Soon after 11am the Batt. was sent forward to reinforce the assaulting party & their local reserves who had failed to capture the whole of their objective. 3 Platoons of “A” Coy & 2 Platoons of “D” Coy charged, gaining their objective in the Turks front line, part of H12a, “A” Coy with scarcely a casualty though “D” Coy suffered heavily from rifle, machine gun & shrapnel fire. Later, “B” Coy charged to take H12, but were caught by a battery of Turkish machine guns situated in their support lines behind H12 & only 50 men survived. LIEUT. COLONEL J.B. WILSON was killed while leading “B” Coy in the charge. Posted as missing, but his body was recovered some months later & buried behind our lines. During the day many attempts were made by the remainder of 7th Sco. Rif. the Royal Scots & the Reserves of 29th Division (5th Royal Scots), to advance up a sap to H12a, but every attempt failed owing to shallowness of trench & enfilade machine gun fire. BRIGADIER GENERAL SCOTT-MONCRIEFF was killed in one of these attempts to push up the sap. PTE. R. SNEDDON “A” Coy rendered valuable service by carrying important messages to & from the captured trench. He had to cross over 100 yds. open ground under heavy rifle fire. He was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. 2ND LIEUT E. WATSON was awarded the Military Cross for his work on this date. About 2am. 29th June those of the Batt. in the captured trenches were relieved by Hampshires & Essex & withdrawn to the Reserve Lines. Batt. reorganised.

8th Bn

28th June

1 machine under Lieut E MACLAY was with No.1.Coy with orders to advance along with H.Q. up the Bomb Sap. 1 machine gun under 2nd Lt R. HUMBLE was brigaded with Captain PATTISON at the “Kink” in the firing line. Bombardment commenced & lasted until 11.00. At 10.50 Rapid Artillery. M.G. & Rifle fire was opened by the Turks on our front line trenches. Some casualties were caused by the artillery fire in the support trenches.

At 10.30 1 platoon of No.2. Coy reinforced No.3. Coy in the firing line.

Nos 1 & 3 Coys went over the parapet No.1 closely followed by No.4 Coy.

No.2. Coy simultaneously dashed over the support trench parapet & suffered heavy casualties before it reached the firing line. A few men of the Bn reached the Turkish trench, the remainder were caught by M.G. fire from Right front. MAJOR FINDLAY C.O. & the Adjutant advanced with the supporting party up the communication trench & were both shot. LT STOUT signalling officer also went up this sap & was killed while endeavouring to help

Major FINDLAY.

Lieut G.A.C. MOORE led a bombing party up H.12. on the right & 2nd Lieut ROBERTSON up the sap. The M.G. under Lieut MACLAY took up a position in the sap & the other gun took up position at the junction of H12 & Firing Line.

This gun was under Cpl MILLER as 2nd Lt HUMBLE had been wounded.

At this time the Bn attack was seen to have failed owing to the TURKS M.G.s not having been adequately shelled. Men began to dribble back to the fire trench. At about 11.30 the long grass between H.12. & our firing line caught fire. This probably accounts for the large number of missing. The ESSEX & HANTS took over our firing line about this time. The Battalion was relieved & spent the night in the Reserve & Support trenches.

The casualty list of officers & men is in Appendix II.

I have the appendices if anyone is interested - i'll not post them up for now to save space.

Hope that helps Tom

Barrie

[Ian M]

Barrie,

Many Thanks for the information, and the steer on the book by Col J.M.Findlay (WITH THE 8TH SCOTTISH RIFLES 1914-1919). Wife doesn't know it, but the re-print by Naval & Military Press is getting invested in later on tonight . She'll be wondering how her books don't fit in the bookcase anymore

Aye

Tom McC

Hya Tom,

My grandfather's brother James Mason was with the 8th and was reported as missing in action on the 28th June 1915. He had lied about his age and was only 17 at the time of his death. His body was never recovered.

I have sent for a copy of the book (WITH THE 8TH SCOTTISH RIFLES 1914-1919), awaiting arrival.

My grandfather had an older brother, (Alexander Mason). I have a photograph of Alexander with 2 other guys, they are all wearing the same light coloured overalls, but all have different army hats. One appears to be Scot's Fusiliers, but Alex's badge is catching the light. It's general shape looks like RA. Do you know if any other cap badges (Glasgow 1914) have a similar shape? Also have you any idea why 3 friends/workmates would join different regiments at the same time?

Cheers,

Ian