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Remembered Today:

Fake hooked quillon on eBay


Heatseeker

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G'day lads ... there was recently a very convincing fake hooky on eBay which would have snared many an idealistic collector:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...p;rd=1&rd=1

To the seller's credit, they pulled the auction after several wake up calls, but bids had risen to 300 quid with five days to go.

What's not kosher about it, you ask? The date's right, and there's no clearance hole in the pommel ...

As I said, the unwary would have been easily snared by this one ...

However:

1: The first bayonet did not roll off the production line at Lithgow until 1913.

2: Up until the end of 1919, Lithgow only put the full year on the blade, and not the month with the last two digits of the year.

3: The Lithgow quillons were finer than the British, on which this fake quillon has apparently been based.

So what you have here is a post 1919 Lithgow bayonet with a fake quillon (the last quillion bayonets were made at Lithgow in 1915) which has had the date - which is in the wrong format - re-stamped (my guess is it was a 1920 bayonet, as Lithgow started to drill the clearance holes in the 1920s).

There is some talk of some fake hooked quillons being made for the Australian movie Gallipoli, but the very neat alteration of the date shows devious intent for obscene profit.

Great War and early post war Lithgow Pattern '07s are prime candidates for fake hookies as they didn't have clearance holes, and this one was quite well done - to the uninitiated.

My only advice is, save these pictures, and if this monstrosity shows up for sale again as anything other than a replica, then write to the seller.

Fortunately, this seller appears to have been duped himself, and acted in an ethical manner by ending the auction.

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As an afterthought, please do not think this is in anyway a shot at the seller, who has acted completely ethically once the authenticity of the item came in to question.

This is more about sharing about how fakes can be spotted, and this was a good one (any post 1915 bayonet with a clearance hole is obvious, so someone's done their homework).

Looking closer at the date, it appears this was a 1921 bayonet and the "2" has been filled in and re-stamped after the "1" ... a 1912 Lithgow bayonet ... I love it - a rare item indeed!

Here's some pics of the bayo ... the quillon is convincing, but the Australian examples came down to a finer point ... as I said, quite well done:

post-8287-1176767875.jpg

post-8287-1176767903.jpg

post-8287-1176767920.jpg

post-8287-1176767957.jpg

post-8287-1176767989.jpg

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There are a number of other things incorrect on it. The trouble is, if you tell everyone what is wrong, the faults can be altered.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=73408

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There are a number of other things incorrect on it. The trouble is, if you tell everyone what is wrong, the faults can be altered.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=73408

Don't know about that call ... I think putting all the information out there lets the fraudsters know their being watched, and hopefully saves some gleeful idealists posting pictures of their new "hooky" on forums such as this and then getting some very bad news.

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A useful warning to the pals here. As Im not a collector and know ltle about bayonets, I have a question about this one. Are you saying the quillon is faked or is it a composite bayonet ? gareth

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I imagine that this is the type of bayonet that I mentioned to forum members in post:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=73408

The bayonet is probably a real 1919 or early 1920s Australian Lithgow made bayonet. Someone has removed the cross guard and replaced it with a hooked quillon. The original date (1919 or 1920s etc) was carefully removed from the blade and a fake date was added. Although Heatseaker may be correct in his assumption that the date itself was altered in the fashion he describes.

This is not the sort of thing that was done by a movie company, who are not interested in such detail. The film Gallipoli used sheet plastic bayonets and some cheap conversions. For close-ups they used real Lithgow(s).

Whoever did this has some knowlege of the detail required to fool some collectors, and would have to be quite adept at metal work and the art of faking. Fortunately they were not too clever, as the forum members here have shown.

I can not say that the hooked quillon is real or recently made, but I can say it is not Australian.

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Two questions, if I may, while the bayonet experts are assembled:

- What kind of profit would a faker make on a bayonet like this?

- What is the 'hooked quillon' for?

Thanks

Mick

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Two questions, if I may, while the bayonet experts are assembled:

- What kind of profit would a faker make on a bayonet like this?

- What is the 'hooked quillon' for?

Mick,

I am not a bayonet expert. But the profit would be reasonable.

I estimate an early Australian bayonet (1920s) might sell for GBP50 (as an average) once altered GBP400 to GBP600.

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Two questions, if I may, while the bayonet experts are assembled:

- What kind of profit would a faker make on a bayonet like this?

- What is the 'hooked quillon' for?

Thanks

Mick

Yes, an early era Lithgow bayonet 20-40 quid, a genuine Aussie hooked quillon 400-600 quid.

The quillon was originally intended to hook fittings on an opponent's rifle and drag it from their grip, I think ... in 1913 Britain ordered them removed and bayonets from then on they were manufactured with straight cross hilts. Lithgow and Ishapore dropped the quillons in 1915.

A big proportion of the hooked quillons of all manufactures were lopped as a matter of course when the bayonets went in to refurb, and often a clearance hole was drilled in the pommel (that's the bit with the release catch).

Hence "hookies" are scarce, and as many bayonets which started life as one had a hole drilled in the pommel, and extra inspection stamps on the blade, they are hard to fake.

However, Lithgow didn't start drilling clearance holes until the 1920s so they are prime canididates for fakery ... the catch is that until about 1919, only the complete year was stamped in to the blades, and not the month and two digit year.

Where this faker really screwed up was the date ... the Lithgow factory was established in 1913, when only a few extremely rare test bayonets were made, and 1914-15 Lithgow bayonets in any configuration are rarely encountered. Since it looks like it's a 1921 bayonet and he's obscured the "2", he would have been better off stamping a "5" to make in "15", but then you'd still have the problem of the double date, and a quillon obviously based on a British bayonet (Lithgow and Ishapore quillons were finer).

Needless to say, beware any Lithgow hooky with a double date, or any other hooky with a hole in the pommel ... on the latter point, one could have snuck through the system in that configuration, but it's unlikely.

As a matter of fact, from here on in, take a second, and third, look at any Lithgow hooky being offered for sale.

I really hope the ****** that did this one did a dozen, and he's now forever stuck with them!

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Yes, an early era Lithgow bayonet 20-40 quid, a genuine Aussie hooked quillon 400-600 quid.

The quillon was originally intended to hook fittings on an opponent's rifle and drag it from their grip, I think ... in 1913 Britain ordered them removed and bayonets from then on they were manufactured with straight cross hilts. Lithgow and Ishapore dropped the quillons in 1915.

A big proportion of the hooked quillons of all manufactures were lopped as a matter of course when the bayonets went in to refurb, and often a clearance hole was drilled in the pommel (that's the bit with the release catch).

Hence "hookies" are scarce, and as many bayonets which started life as one had a hole drilled in the pommel, and extra inspection stamps on the blade, they are hard to fake.

However, Lithgow didn't start drilling clearance holes until the 1920s so they are prime canididates for fakery ... the catch is that until about 1919, only the complete year was stamped in to the blades, and not the month and two digit year.

Where this faker really screwed up was the date ... the Lithgow factory was established in 1913, when only a few extremely rare test bayonets were made, and 1914-15 Lithgow bayonets in any configuration are rarely encountered. Since it looks like it's a 1921 bayonet and he's obscured the "2", he would have been better off stamping a "5" to make in "15", but then you'd still have the problem of the double date, and a quillon obviously based on a British bayonet (Lithgow and Ishapore quillons were finer).

Needless to say, beware any Lithgow hooky with a double date, or any other hooky with a hole in the pommel ... on the latter point, one could have snuck through the system in that configuration, but it's unlikely.

As a matter of fact, from here on in, take a second, and third, look at any Lithgow hooky being offered for sale.

I really hope the ****** that did this one did a dozen, and he's now forever stuck with them!

Hello Chums,

Ive followed this thread with great interest.

Firstly... How did I miss this one on Ebay?

Secondly, Lithgow started production of the Enfield Pattern 1907 bayonet in 1912, stopped production in 1919, then once again began to produce the '07' from the mid 20's, but that which has already been pointed out, the date of munufacture for WW.1 '07's was in the form of the the year in full only.

Why the mention of the clearance hole in '07' pommels when this hookie has none?

Incidentally, the approval date for the removal of the '07' quillion was: 29th October 1913, which in effect meant that no British '07' quillions were manufactured after 1913.

The appearance of the Clearance Hole in '07's began on 5th January 1916.

Also.. has anyone noticed that the stampings on the ricasso for this erm.. fake... are the wrong way up? They should read the correct way when the bayonet blade is pointing down on a WW.1 Lithgow. The faker has certainly slipped up on his homework for this one... teehee!

Thanks Heatseeker for posting this thread. I'll be putting this example on my fakes listing.

Seph :D

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Hello Chums,

Also.. has anyone noticed that the stampings on the ricasso for this erm.. fake... are the wrong way up? They should read the correct way when the bayonet blade is pointing down on a WW.1 Lithgow. The faker has certainly slipped up on his homework for this one... teehee!

Hi Seph,

Not sure I understand this last bit.... could you elucidate - or, failing that explain it in small words that I can understand :P ?

Are you saying that the Lithgow date etc should be the other way up on the blade, so if I hold the grips in my hand and look at the blade the stamps would be upside down? or that the Lithgow is stamped on the wrong side of the blade? apologies for my denseness......

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Hi Seph,

Not sure I understand this last bit.... could you elucidate - or, failing that explain it in small words that I can understand :P ?

Are you saying that the Lithgow date etc should be the other way up on the blade, so if I hold the grips in my hand and look at the blade the stamps would be upside down? or that the Lithgow is stamped on the wrong side of the blade? apologies for my denseness......

Hmmm.. (thinks)... "Ahah, a Scott, I'll need to be gentle with im!!"

Ok... Look at the left ricasso of the fake (thats the flat of the blade next to the crossguard) with the cutting edge of the blade pointing to the left. With the blade in that position, imagine the markings to be on one peace of metal then turn that peace a complete 180 degrees. The shield should now be by the crossguard, the date in the centre and the makers name by the fuller, but they read as being upside down. They should look (as a norm) for WW.1 Lithgows like the illustration below.

post-18081-1176863169.jpg

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Hmmm.. (thinks)... "Ahah, a Scott, I'll need to be gentle with im!!"

Ok... Look at the left ricasso of the fake (thats the flat of the blade next to the crossguard) with the cutting edge of the blade pointing to the left. With the blade in that position, imagine the markings to be on one peace of metal then turn that peace a complete 180 degrees. The shield should now be by the crossguard, the date in the centre and the makers name by the fuller, but they read as being upside down. They should look (as a norm) for WW.1 Lithgows like the illustration below.

Now you've got me befuddled, and wanting to race home and check the markings on my small clutch of '07s ... as far as I can tell, the faker has just altered exisitng markings, and I think the format you've presented are the exception rather than the rule - although it is a good illustration of the date format for Lithgow bayonets of that era.

Following is a picture of a "standard" 1917 Sanderson with clearance hole above a intact March 1914 Enfield (note no clearance hole and lovely original bluing) and a 1911 Enfield which has been roughly de-hooked and sharpened (probably at unit level as there are no inspection stamps) but has no clearance hole.

Looking at the markings on the three bayonets, they are in the same format as the fakem with the bottom towards the cross piece.

If I was to be fraudulent, the latter bayoent could provide an excellent basis for an almost undetecable fake ... alas, I am a collector, not a creator, and that relic tells a good enough story just as it is.

Yes, it has been an interesting persiflage!

post-8287-1176864054.jpg

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Secondly, Lithgow started production of the Enfield Pattern 1907 bayonet in 1912, stopped production in 1919, then once again began to produce the '07' from the mid 20's, but that which has already been pointed out, the date of munufacture for WW.1 '07's was in the form of the the year in full only.

Why the mention of the clearance hole in '07' pommels when this hookie has none?

Incidentally, the approval date for the removal of the '07' quillion was: 29th October 1913, which in effect meant that no British '07' quillions were manufactured after 1913.

The appearance of the Clearance Hole in '07's began on 5th January 1916.

Seph :D

As far as I know the first Lithgow stamped and dated bayonets were made in 1914, and in my expeditions I have only ever encountered one, which had been de-hooked but had no clearance hole in the pommel.

My point in mentioning the pommel on this (fraudulent) bayonet is that to begin to make a convincing fake, then you would at least need to start with a pommel with no hole.

I have seen Pattern 07 with straight cross pieces but no clearance hole made as late as June, 1916, but these could have been from blanks which were residual in the system.

Here's a snap of my "no hole" '07s ... the first hooky from the left is an October 1913 Enfield, and the next one along is a 1915 Lithgow - the differences in the quillons are readily apparent.

The first bayonet on the left is a 1913 Enfield, which has a 1915 inspection date, which would have been when it was de-hooked, but this was before they were drilling the pommels.

post-8287-1176864845.jpg

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Heatseeker,

Your a little off track by showing those pics, which we have seen many times before.

The topic which you originally posted was for Lithow of WW.1, not Remington, EFD, Wilkinson, Sanderson, Vickers, Chapman or R.F.I.

Point taken about the Clearence Hole.

When Lithgow began production of the '07' again in the mid 20's, they changed the marking details to the same format as that of the other British WW.1 manufacturers. Also, they introduced the 'MA' & 'OA' arsenal markings about that time also.

If you do have in your collection (excellant quality by the way) an example of a WW.1 Lithgow, take a few moments to study the orientation of the left ricasso markings. No disrespect to you (for I know that you are a serious '07' collector), but I have always been under the assumption that this particular Lithgow orientation was common knowledge! At least those collectors I know are aware of this.

Incidentally, the hookie that is on the right of your second pic ... its a Lithgow with the same orientation as I've illustrated.

I'd appreciate your comments.

Seph.. :)

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Heatseeker,

When Lithgow began production of the '07' again in the mid 20's, they changed the marking details to the same format as that of the other British WW.1 manufacturers. Also, they introduced the 'MA' & 'OA' arsenal markings about that time also.

If you do have in your collection (excellant quality by the way) an example of a WW.1 Lithgow, take a few moments to study the orientation of the left ricasso markings. No disrespect to you (for I know that you are a serious '07' collector), but I have always been under the assumption that this particular Lithgow orientation was common knowledge! At least those collectors I know are aware of this.

Incidentally, the hookie that is on the right of your second pic ... its a Lithgow with the same orientation as I've illustrated.

I'd appreciate your comments.

Seph.. :)

Yes, as I said, I need to go home and have a look, but it does appear that war era Lithgow Pattern 07s did have the markings around the other way, so there's another point of recognition.

And no, I do not have a war era straight cross piece Lithgow in my collection, but I am constantly on the lookout.

There you go ... you learn something new every day!

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There you go ... you learn something new every day!

Your spot on the mark there. We are all, no matter what our expertise or level of knowledge, on a constant upward learning curve.

The Lithgow that I illustrated in this thread is a none-Clearance Hole example, so they certainly are out there.

Here it is in full handle.... ENJOY!

Seph :D

post-18081-1176874163.jpg

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Heatseeker,

Point taken about the Clearence Hole.

When Lithgow began production of the '07' again in the mid 20's, they changed the marking details to the same format as that of the other British WW.1 manufacturers. Also, they introduced the 'MA' & 'OA' arsenal markings about that time also.

If you do have in your collection (excellant quality by the way) an example of a WW.1 Lithgow, take a few moments to study the orientation of the left ricasso markings. No disrespect to you (for I know that you are a serious '07' collector), but I have always been under the assumption that this particular Lithgow orientation was common knowledge! At least those collectors I know are aware of this.

Seph.. :)

Bootnecks,

I am not sure if you are 100% right when you say that Lithgow began production again in the mid 20's. It is well known that post war production was greatly reduced, but I am not sure that it stopped. I have seen bayonets and rifles dated very early in the 1920's. In fact one bayonet, dated 1921, was recently sold on ebay for about GBP40.

"Australian P1907 LITHGOW Bayonet Item number: 280098391438"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=280098391438

(I am sure this bayonet would lend itself to a nasty conversion)

I am aware that Lithgow orientated the marks, symbols and writing to be read in the manner you state, and my few WW1 Lithgow bayonets support your theory. However, I am aware that Lithgow did re-orientate the markings to the opposite direction. But I do not know when.

I should also mention, that I was of the understanding that bayonet production did cease for a while. But that was late in 1927, and started up again in WW2.

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I have only one 07 bayonet that was bought from a dusty collectors shop in the late 80's. I have just looked at it and it is a 1915 (full year and no month) dated Lithgow. Below date is Lithgow and above a shield?

It has no clearence hole and on the other side of the blade it hastwo stars with an A in side, a horizontal Y

The cross guard is stamped 3M.D 34383. At the top of the pommel is the no211.

Can anyone explain the markings and how rare is this. It is not a hooked quillon.

Thanks

TT

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I suspect that it may have been an A9 bayonet, "Pattern 1907 bayonet with hooked quillon", which has had the hook removed. Have a close look at the cross guard, you might be able to see some marks where the hook was cut away.

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Nothing obvious re cutting down the quillon but I am no expert. Any ides re the nunbers etc?

TT

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Nothing obvious re cutting down the quillon but I am no expert. Any ides re the nunbers etc?

TT

The marks on the cross guard are local issue marks, 3 M.D., is the Third Military District, and is marked locally. The number on the pommel is the serial number. This a low number for 1915, and as Lithgow was still making A9 bayonets in 1915 I would suspect that yours was one of these. Being made early in 1915 it was probably an A9 "Pattern 1907 bayonet with hooked quillon", and not the later version without the hook.

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Thanks for that. Out of interest was it ony Austrailians who would have had these bayonets or were Imperial troops supplied. Also is my bayonet rare and what is the liklihood it was issued during the war or being 3rd military district is it likley to have been a local issue in Austrialia ?

Sorry if these are stupid qs.

TT

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Gentlemen,

I mentioned another 1921-dated Lithgow A10 bayonet that was sold on Ebay recently. "Australian P1907 LITHGOW Bayonet Item number: 280098391438"

On closer examination it would appear that the marks and writing on the blade are 'inverted'. The marks are set up the same way as the fake bayonet mentioned in the beginning of this thread. So it would appear that it was indeed a 1921 Lithgow that had been altered, as suggested by Heatseeker.

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