Puzzling Grave.....?

[Borderman]

A little background.

Caumont is a tiny little village in an isolated valley in the Pas de Calais. A baker shop, small school, the bar has shut, local farmers having a very hard time of it. Hardly any French folk there as the Brits have bought up almost one side of the village.

A strange church that is missing one end (church was shared by two villages, when the other felt it was rich enough, they took their half back). A memorial to those French men who gave their lives in the two world wars stands at the gate.

But inside the churchyard in perfectly kept plots (mostly the work of the locals) are a strange collection of 8 CWGC graves. 6 crew of a downed Halifax bomber, the CO of 609 sqdn and a private of the Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars. He is Thomas Hartley, died 27 December 1916.

Now my point is, I can understand that airplanes drop out of the sky and land in odd places, but what was Pte Thomas Hartley doing here? There are large cemeteries at Wavans and Hesdin, but they are on main roads, trust me Caumont is the back end of beyond.

Any thoughts?

It’s not urgent, just something that has been itching at the back of my mind.

Dave

[GTS]

Could he have died whilst recuperating from illness or wounds ? Although you would think that if there were convalescent facilities locally then you would assume that more than one person would have died.

Could he have died as a result of a transport accident ? Although again, looking at the Michelin map for the area it is hard to really see why anybody would be passing through the village.

Another thought is that as he was a cavalry man, perhaps he died in training, maybe fell from his horse whilst practicing cross country long range patrolling etc ?

Sorry I'm not much help really !!!

[Neil Mackenzie]

Dave.

On Tuesday I had a quick look at the war diary for the period in question.

Caumont is specifically mentioned in the QOOH war diary for earlier in the year:-

8/9/16 - 2.30 at Caumont

9/9/16 - Caumont - Brigade scheme (I assume this is training - NM)

10/9/16 Moved billets doing a scheme on the way.

So may be he was taken ill at that time and died later.

In October they were in camp near Dernancourt with a dismounted party working near Carnoy.

8-11 November Moved to billets with HQ at Vaulx

11-30 November (and for the whole of December)

HQ and D Squadron at Vaulx

A Squadron at Willencourt

C Squadron at Le Panchel

I have no idea where these places are in relation to Caumont.

Neil

[Borderman]

Cheers Neil and GTS

Caumont is so out of the way and that's why I was wondering.

I thought he might have fallen off his horse and broken his neck and they buried him in the nearest churchyard, although there are a number of CWGC graveyards relatively close that could have taken him and perhaps should have taken him.

Guess we'll never know

And to be fair I’m not sure if anyone could really have shed much light on this lonely little grave.

Ah well

Dave

[Neil Mackenzie]

Caumont is only a few kilometres west-north-west of Vaulx, as you say, he probably died in an accident while training. Unfortunately the war diary at that time does not seem to bother mentioning casualties.

Neil

[Borderman]

Thanks Neil

Just a little death in a sea of them I suppose, a nobody in a grave in the middle of nowhere.

I have a house there and was just curious. I'm amazed why they don't move him, can't be economical to look after those few graves.

Many thanks again for your help and time

Dave

[ChrisC]

There is no mention in Keith-Falconer's "The Oxfordshire Hussars in the Great War" for 27th Dec. Hartley is listed in an appendix as 1784 Lance Corporal T Hartley 27/12/16 Died Caumont.

As other casualties are listed as Died of Wounds or Killed, I can only surmise that his death was through accident or sickness.

Chris C

PS the NA has him as Private Hartley with a regimental number of 1854

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=16

[BeppoSapone]

Cheers Neil and GTS

Caumont is so out of the way and that's why I was wondering.

I thought he might have fallen off his horse and broken his neck and they buried him in the nearest churchyard, although there are a number of CWGC graveyards relatively close that could have taken him and perhaps should have taken him.

Guess we'll never know

And to be fair I’m not sure if anyone could really have shed much light on this lonely little grave.

Ah well

Dave

In another thread I read that Hooge Crater Cemetery had the remains of a large number of soldiers moved to it, from other places of burial, after the war. One of these was my great-uncle.

I was advised to contact the CWGC in order to see where he was originally buried. Reading between the lines it looks as if the CWGC could have some sort of a file on each person buried?

Why not ask them if they have any more information on this soldier, and why he is buried where he is?

[Mark Crame]

Just stumbled on this by chance. I'm involved with 609 Squadron. Here's my file on S/Ldr Thornton-Brown:

81639 Squadron Leader Patrick Glynn 'Pat' Thornton-Brown DFC CdeG (Belg) avec Palme

The son of Major Eric and Gladys Thornton-Brown of Slough, Buckinghamshire and the husband of Betty, also of Slough, Patrick joined 263 Squadron in early 1941 as a Pilot Officer flying Westland Whirlwinds. On 14th March he crashed whilst landing at Portreath and was seriously injured neccesitating a long period of hospitalisation. On recovering he converted to Typhoons and joined 56 Squadron as a Flight Commander. He was later promoted to the rank of Squadron Leader and assumed Command of 609 Squadron at Lympne on 21st August 1943. On 21st December 1943 flying Typhoon R8845 from Manston he was leading six Typhoons of 609 Squadron on Ramrod 382, escorting American Maurauders. Over the Somme Estuary F/Lt Smith was attacked by two RAF Spitfires, followed by an attack by American P47 thunderbolts on both Smith and Sgt McLaughlin. 609 pilots fired off the recognition signals of the day and S/Ldr Thornton-Brown told his pilots to withdraw. The time was 11:00hrs with the formation over Abbeville. A Typhoon was seen going down in flames and was ascertained to be that of Flying Officer Miller who was flying as No.2 to Flying Officer Ross. Both of these Typhoon pilots were attacked by P47’s. Squadron Leader Thornton-Brown told his No 2, Sergeant Adam, to return to base. The American fighters renewed their attacks and badly damaged Thornton-Browns Typhoon and he baled out near Doullens, but eye witness reports say that whilst floating down on his parachute he was shot and killed by German ground troops. Also on Ramrod 382 was 501 Squadron, briefed to meet the Maurauders 10 miles North East of Abbeville. The bombers did not keep the rendezvous, and again American P47 fighters attacked, and shot down 3 Spitfires. Squadron Leader Thornton-Browns DFC was announced two days after his death, as well as a reccomendation for promotion to Wing Commander, and he was recognised by the Belgian Government with the award of the Croix de Guerre avec Palme on 18th June 1946. He died aged 24 and is buried at the village of Caumont just South of Hesdin, Pas de Calais.

THORNTON-BROWN, Patrick Glynn, S/L, DFC (81639) - Croix de Guerre with Palm, Belgian - awarded as per London Gazette dated 18 June 1946.

[Borderman]

Thanks for that Mark

Just wondering after reading that, which side were the Americans on?

Or were they just trying to be fair and shoot down everyone?

Thank goodness that sort of blue on blue stopped in WW2, if it happened now there would be inquests and all sorts of things.

It’s a very strange graveyard indeed with many a tail to tell. This is not the place but I was told the ‘local’ story about the Halifax that went down and understandably it is wildly different from the facts.

Next time I’m over to see the lazy good for nothing builders I’ll get you a photo of the grave.

Many Thanks

Dave

[PBI]

In Pozieres Civilian Cemetery is buried a Man from the R.A.S.C. from WW2...what is He Doing There ?

[Borderman]

In Pozieres Civilian Cemetery is buried a Man from the R.A.S.C. from WW2...what is He Doing There ?

Probably not a lot

Or those Yank P 47 Thunderbolts got him, boobytrap, truck turned over. Should be able to find out though? there must be more information about WW2 graves. Or not.

Dave

[BeppoSapone]

Thanks for that Mark

Just wondering after reading that, which side were the Americans on?

Or were they just trying to be fair and shoot down everyone?

Many Thanks

Dave

It is an American tradition that continues today.

Both on active service and at home.

[PBI]

My Mums 2 Brothers having survived the D-Day Landings,were Bombed by the Americans on D Plus 5,by the American 13th Bomber Group thus confiming its Affiliation to the Luftwaffe,and also earning itself the Name..The 13th Luftwaffe...Then in the Korean War My Dad and His Mortar battery were Napalmed by USAAF Fighter Bombers,and then came under Long range American Artillery Fire...Not a Good Day.

[Borderman]

My Mums 2 Brothers having survived the D-Day Landings,were Bombed by the Americans on D Plus 5,by the American 13th Bomber Group thus confiming its Affiliation to the Luftwaffe,and also earning itself the Name..The 13th Luftwaffe...Then in the Korean War My Dad and His Mortar battery were Napalmed by USAAF Fighter Bombers,and then came under Long range American Artillery Fire...Not a Good Day.

Good Grief, it's a worry isn't it?

Dave

[ChrisC]

My old man - fought in NW Europe had a saying. The RAF comes over - the Germans take cover, The luftwaffe comes over - the Allies take cover, the Yanks come over - EVERYONE takes cover!!

Chris C

[stevew]

My old man - fought in NW Europe had a saying. The RAF comes over - the Germans take cover, The luftwaffe comes over - the Allies take cover, the Yanks come over - EVERYONE takes cover!!

Chris C

Chris you beat me to it

[Mark Crame]

Chris you beat me to it

And me!

There was a memorial to Thornton-Brown which has been taken away and restored by a guy I know in France - not sure if it's back up yet.

[Terry Denham]

I was advised to contact the CWGC in order to see where he was originally buried. Reading between the lines it looks as if the CWGC could have some sort of a file on each person buried?

No. They have many of the army burial returns for each current cemetery. These show where each body came from if it was moved.