Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section

[Roxy]

Pals,

I recently came across a member of the RNRTS, commemorated at Ardersier near Inverness. It got me thinking, what did they do - surely they were not just sailors who caught fish, or maybe they were.

What I was certain was the the GWF would have the information at their fingertips!

Can anyone cast any light?

Roxy

[Roxy]

I tried google - they were mine sweepers.

http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/RN_Minewarfare_Branch.htm

You learn something new every day here - even if you find it youeself!

Roxy!

[Michael Lowrey]

Roxy,

Not just minesweeping, though that was the most dangerous part, but also (mine) net tending, patrol work and as convoy escorts.

Best wishes,

Michael

[joseph]

Roxy,

The RNR(T) did any task they where asked to do, from Q Ship to ferrying soldiers ashore in Gallipoli, a nice quote from the History of The Royal Naval Reserve;

"It is impossible to give a full account of the work of the trawlers, but sufficient incidents have been mentioned to show the extraordinary diversity of the jobs they tackled."

Regards Charles

[Neil Clark]

The Dover Patrol extensively used armed and converted fishing trawlers too and many crew were RNR including most Masters...

[historydavid]

Roxy,

When the trawlers were requisitioned by the Admiralty the were assigned to a specific type of service and fitted out accordingly. If requirements changed then they were re-assigned and refitted.

Best wishes

David

[Roxy]

Thanks, folks - I knew the Pals would come through.

Roxy

[joseph]

Roxy,

Who was your casualty? maybe we can close it down and find out what he did.

Regards Charles

[Roxy]

Charles,

This is the chap - details obtained by Adam Brown on the Scottish War Memorial Discussion Forum.

He is commemorated at Ardersier near Inverness.

Name: SUTHERLAND, ALEXANDER MAIN

Initials: A M

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Trimmer Cook

Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Reserve

Unit Text: H.M. Drifter "Great Heart."

Date of Death: 24/09/1915

Service No: 421TC

Additional information: Son of Ellen Main Sutherland, of 114, High St., Ardersier, Inverness-shire, and the late James Sutherland.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: 10.

Memorial: PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL

Roxy

[joseph]

Roxy,

From Adm Bacon's Dover Patrol;

On September 23rd 1916 when H.M. the King inspected the Dover Patrol, the drifters of the Patrol were anchored in three long lines off the dockyard wall, the crews being paraded ashore for His Majesty's inspection. The drifter Clover Bank, with her nets and all gear complete for shooting, was moored alongside the wall for the King's inspection. The King went on board her and inspected the gear, and went down to the after-cabin with the skipper, making himself thoroughly acquainted with the life and work on board.

The next operation in which the Drifter Patrol was engaged was a double one, the Patrol leaving Dover on September 24th, 1916, in two sections : one to accompany the monitors, Prince Eugene and General Craufurd, to bombard Zeebrugge, and the other to accompany the remaining monitors to bombard Ostend. The first section consisting of the first division under Lieutenant Godfrey, R.N., in the Ma Freen, and the second division under Lieutenant Crafter, R.N.R., in the Herring Searcher, with the yacht Sanda, Lieutenant-Commander Gartside Tipping, R.N. The whole force was under Commander Venn, R.N.R., in the drifter Cosmos. When about two miles off the eastern entrance of Dover harbour, the drifter Great Heart struck a mine and sank with the loss of Skipper William Davidson and seven hands killed, two also being injured. The drifters Shipmates and Begonia returned to harbour with the survivors, reducing Commander Venn's mine-net boats from twenty-two to nineteen.

Regards Charles

[joseph]

Roxy,

Precis from 'Dover Patrol'

Mine Net Boats

Many minor improvements of the gear were made and employed, but without doubt the most successful adjunct to the nets was the “net-mine," invented by Admiral of the Fleet Sir A. K. Wilson, V.C. This electrically-fired mine proved of immense value, and completely revolutionised the method of employing the nets. It was really the combination of two instruments of destruction deadly to submarines—the net and the mine.

A mine when laid in the ordinary way— that is, moored to the bottom of the sea by a rope—only guards a space equal to its own dimensions, about 3 feet by 3 feet, and a vessel can pass within a fraction of an inch above or below, or to either side of it, with perfect safety. The use of a mine whose area could be extended to that occupied by a net, and which could be fired automatically, increased the value of the mine im¬mensely, for, when a net enveloped the submarine, the mine was brought, with more or less certainty, into contact with her hull, with the consequent destruction or serious damage to the vessel. The only disadvantages were, first, that the mine was equally dangerous to our own craft, if, from some cause beyond their control, they got into a dangerous area and fouled the nets, and that, secondly, electric firing was circuits. It was largely for this reason that the system hitherto followed, of employing drifters attached to a “fleet " of mine-nets, which drifted with the tide, was abandoned, and a system of mooring the nets to the bottom was instituted, and became almost universal. The successes were many, but it was often impossible to tell for certain if a submarine had been destroyed, for the mines were frequently fouled and fired by whales, thrasher-sharks, and other large fish, besides being struck by drifting wreckage, etc. However, conclusive evidence of success was more than once obtained by the sudden appearance on the surface of a dead German sailor, caught amongst the remains of a net which was being hauled in for repair or over¬haul. But the chief claim to success was the immunity which was enjoyed by the English Channel from the presence of mine-laying submarines for many months after the institution of the mine-net barrage on the Belgian coast in 1916, which is referred to elsewhere in this narrative.

Regards Charles

[historydavid]

Roxy,

On 24th September 1915 Hired Drifter, Adm No 1395, Net tender, Great Heart, 78 tons, hit mine and sank, laid by SMU UC 6, E from South Goodwin Lightship, E from South Goodwin Lightship, Strait of Dover, causing 8 crew deaths (probably whole crew).

Best wishes

David

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Copies of his RNR service cards are in BT 377/7, on microfiche, at Kew arranged in service number order.

[Petroc]

Pals,

At the risk of intruding in your maritime discussion forum (bit of a landlubber I'm afraid) the RNR Trawler Section had another interesting side role...

I gathered this from local records down here in Brixham (yeah, I know, I said landlubber..!!!)

Remarkably few local fishermen appear to have ben engaged in naval sevice (unless already members of the RN's 'Territorials' equivalent) until, and that's a crucial 'until', the emphasis of the war began to shift towards the Western Approaches, the Celtic Sea, etc..when the enemy increasingly targeted local merchant shipping, including trawlers, then the Admiralty appears to have responded accordingly by insisting that local fishing fleets (who often traditionally fished in close proximity) were accompanied by an armed vessel which may have been an existing naval vessel but was frequently a converted ship whose crews were swiftly enrolled into the Senior Service. With the onset of conscription many fishermen were enrolled under what was known as 'Section Y' of the naval reserve, perhaps much like the Army's pre-war Special Reserve, whereby they continued their trade until 'called-up' by the governent..the call-up of men under this scheme caused considerable local resentment in 1917 but the reason seems clear.....yes, the Armed Trawlers were involved in convoy protection, mine-sweeping, etc, but they were also very definitely involved in the mutual protection of normal fishing proceedures and practice..the reason being that the produce of the sea was an incredibly important food source for a nation already experiencing problems with food production and land-based agriculture

Andy

[Clio]

I obtained these casualty names for Great Heart.

ALLEN,William 2ndEngrnn RNR

BRODIE,Hector Davidson Trimmer RNR

FINLAYSON,R. DeckHand RNR

RAYMAN, Frederick 2ndHand RNR

STORM, James Deckhand RNR

SUTHERLAND, Alexander Main Trimmer Cook RNR

DAVIDSON, William Temp/Skipper RNR

[Clio]

I am not convinced that in 1916 net barrages ever deterred a single U boat. M Lowreys views would be interesting on this point. According to my researches from British and German sources, only the Folkestone/Griz Nez Barrage of 1917 had any real effect

[nhclark]

It may interest all of you to know that I am transcribing all the names in the "Dover Patrol Book of Remembrance" and, where I can, identifying the people listed by cross-reference to the CWGC. This may not be possible in every case, because the Book of Remembrance lists just surname and initial(s); where the surname is a common one, and there is just a single initial, it is not always possible to decide just who was who.

This transcription is being done as part of the Dover War Memorials Project; it will take me some time to complete, but I understand that eventually the transcription will be posted on the internet.

Noel

[Michael Lowrey]

Clio,

I agree with your assment. Mine nets didn't do much of anything. They sank UC 6 and that'a about it.

As for the quote that Charles provided about the effectiveness of detering minelaying subs from entering the English Channel, it's clear that the reference is to the small, slow, limited range UCIs. I should also note the quote does not mention torpedo attack boats, such as the UBII class class which entered service in 1916 and also obviously does not cover the even larger UCII minelayers that deployed to Flanders in late 1916. Both of these classes would regularly operate in the Channel from 1916 on (the UBII did patrols even earlier)...

Also, the body found in the water was a German attempt to make it appear as if the mine nets were really effective when in actuality they weren't.

Minefields were the best ASW device of the war. Would certainly include the mining of the Flanders coast from May 1918 on in the effective list. Some of the earlier minefields also accounted for U-boats.

Best wishes,

Michael

[quigs1969]

Hi All,

 

I hope it is ok to post here, thought as it is regarding the RNR Trawler Section I would be best not to start a new topic.

 

My great granddad Donald Crawford (born 1868) received the Mercantile Marine Medal and the British War Medal during WW1.

 

I have found log books for Loch Doon on the National Maritime Museum website (1915 only) my great granddad Donald is on the crew list, recorded as "Master"

 

"Loch Doon" was a steam fishing trawler built in 1907 for the Loch Line Steam Trawling & Fishing Co. Ltd, she was requisitioned for war service at the outbreak of the war and converted to a minesweeper with 1-6pdr HA  (Admiralty  No. 271).

 

The log book which are for the period 1 Jan 1915 - 31 Dec 1915 state that the "Registered Managing Owner" is John G. Stewart, Custom House Quay, Glasgow.

 

My grandfather Thomas Crawford was also on Loch Doon with his father as a 15 year old boy Deck Boy, my grandfather's brother Peter Crawford was also onboard, he enlisted with the 10th A&SH very soon after and was killed in action near Ypres on 15th October 1915.

 

That's about all I know about "Loch Doon" during WW1, now for the questions (loads).

 

1. Would my great grandfather and his crew have been part of the RNR Trawler Section, would the men have been RNVR or still classed as merchant seamen?
2. My great grandfather writes in the log books about drilling the men, what did this consist of?
3. Who would be responsable for firing the 1-6pdr HA (if they ever did)?
4. Was it common for deck boys serving on RNR Trawlers to be so young?
5. Would Loch Doon have the prefix HMS during the war?
6. Is there anywhere I could find out more info on "Loch Doon" or her crew during war?

Any help on any or all of the above questions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Colin

[horatio2]

I think the LOCH DOON for which you have the NMM papers is not the Admiralty Hired Trawler LOCH DOON (Admiralty No.271). The former was a Glasgow-registered boat whereas the latter was an Aberdeen boat.

The Auxiliary Patrol LOCH DOON was taken up on 8 August 1914 at HMS HALCYON (Lowestoft Auxiliary Patrol Base) and served there until 1 July 1917 when she was transferred to HMS ISLAND PRINCE (North Shields Base). She would never have travelled far from these bases. The log books for the other boat show that she travelled widely from Glasgow and the crew, as listed, is not an RNR crew.

 

There are no men with the names/ages that  you give who are listed as RNR ratings or skippers. Your relatives were, therefore, commercial fishermen, not members of the RNR Trawler Section operating in the Auxiliary Patrol. The fact that Duncan Crawford qualified for the MM Medal (not for 1914-15 Star and Victory Medal as would an RNR skipper) confirms this. (Although this link does not include a Duncan Crawford born in 1868 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=duncan&_ln=crawford&_pl=&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=BT+351&_cr2=MT+9&_col=200&_dt=BW&_hb=tna

Edited 25 October , 2016 by horatio2

[quigs1969]

Wow!, shocker Horatio, thanks very much for spotting this, I was certain I had the right ship, a lesson learned.

 

The "Loch Doon" my Donald WAS actually on wasn't even a trawler it was a "Coaster General Cargo" ship, a steel screw steamer built in 1904 by Scott & Sons, Bowling, Scotland.

 

Could he have got his Mercantile Marine Medal and British War Medal for his time on this ship or would it have been a ship with a more active role in the war?

His medal card is at the following link

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7997899

 

 

The address 106 Florence Street, Glasgow matches the address on the NMM log book.

 

I had wondered why no one with a Navy rating was on the boat.

 

You have def lived up to your 2 stars on this one Horatio

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

[horatio2]

Sorry for the duff medal card link, caused by Duncan vice Donald. Oops!

I would think the LOCH DOON service qualified him for the medals.

Edited 25 October , 2016 by horatio2

[quigs1969]

Coincidently, he did have a son Duncan, he was in the Gordon Highlanders wounded at the Battle of Loos and taken prisoner.

 

Thanks again Horatio

[ernest james]

There are two 1915 crew lists for the Loch Doon, Official Number (ON) 119130 included in the 1915 crewlist project .

see

1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk

 

It appears that Donald Crawford was still at sea in the 1918-21 period because he has an RS2 number which were only issued during this period. There is no corresponding CR10 card. 

 

best wishes

ernestjames

 

[quigs1969]

Thanks Ernest