Commission from the Ranks

[PhilB]

A member (probably still suffering jetlag) has suggested a strong case for a ranker, on commissioning, to be posted out of the battalion as it would be difficult to be serving with his previous equals or seniors. I don`t see this as being a problem. In fact it could be an advantage in that any prospective officer should have earned the respect and esteem of his colleagues. Further, his credentials as a fully paid up member of the unit are established. Any views? Phil B

[pandabean]

It can be seen in two ways from where I am.

When he was in the ranks with all his friends who were at roughly the same level and then he got promoted he would have to give orders to the men, which could be difficult. It could be difficult in terms of the ranks still trying to be friendly with him and persuade him not to carry out the orders or disobey his orders. Also it would be difficult for the newly promoted officer to send his friends on a charge which could kill them off.

The other way to look at it is the ranks and this newly promoted officer will have earned respect for each other and they will trust him more.

So in a way it is better for the newly promoted officer to be transferred to a group which he doesn't know that way there wouldn't be as many problems if he stayed within the original batallion.

Andy

[John_Hartley]

There are strong hints in the records of 6/Cheshire of discipline problems because NCOs (and to a lesser extent, officers) and men were pre-war friends and acquaintances.

Similarly, I have seen a couple of officer files of men who had been ORs in 6/Manchester where the CO supported their commissions "but not in the battalion".

As a modern day aside, it was common (but not exclusively so) for promotions with my last employer to be to a different unit. The similar argument running that it raised no issues of past relationships. Certainly I well recall some folk who stayed with their unit having problems being accepted as managers (by other managers).

John

[PhilB]

It doesn`t seem to be a problem with NCOs and WOs when they have been promoted above their mates. Why such a problem if they`re commissioned? Phil B

[Muerrisch]

I recall that CO's were asked, in writing, when recommending a man for a commission " would you accept him in your battalion ". That is a brilliant question.

If 'no', then is the CO dumping a possible problem?

If 'yes', the CO had to be prepared to go through with it.

Certainly in the Scientific Civil Service of my day, promotion was usually accompanied by a move [and spouses were usually not allowed to work in same branch etc]. These rules were not invented to muck people about: they were for the perceived good of the organisation. They seemed to work.

And I am permanently jetlagged .... it's my age.

[yellow]

On the most part men from ranks given commissions were sent to other units. However I can name many cases in Territorial and Regular Battalions where this did not happen in fact almost every regiment made its old NCO's officers. I know of one territorial Sergeant who prior to WW1 jumped in ONE HOP from Sergeant to Captain.......this was only possible if he could pass the Captains exam.........being a school master he did that no problem.......an exceptional case indeed.

[Coldstreamer]

in my limited experience of men commissioned from the ranks its pretty much 50 -50 spliit on staying or going

[yellow]

Ive found that the ones who normally stay are those who are are well liked or seen as a vital part of the running of the Battalion.

Ive noticed a trend in that those men commissioned from Private nearly always finish up with other units. As I said above I am sure there were exceptions particulary in territorial units when a particular man was held in high regard with in the local community.

P.S. Coldstreamer........Nice sunny weather mate!

[Coldstreamer]

it wasnt sunny this morning - cold and misty!

From the books Ive read it does seem that unpopular people got moved on...or moved out!

[PhilB]

I recall that CO's were asked, in writing, when recommending a man for a commission " would you accept him in your battalion ". That is a brilliant question.

If 'no', then is the CO dumping a possible problem?

If 'yes', the CO had to be prepared to go through with it.

Which begs the question - did the CO usually get to keep the ones he answered "yes" to? Phil B

[Chris Henschke]

Other armies, other ways. It didn't seem to be a problem in the AIF.

"‘Wally,’ I said, ‘you will have to draw your own dinner.’

He looked up, puzzled as to my meaning. ‘How is that. Aren’t you hungry?’

“Yes, but I have to feed down the road.’

Then he saw the star, jumped up and congratulated me. The others crowded round, each in turn claiming his right to congratulate me. Those handshakes and words from mates with whom I had shared shelter, shell holes, food and danger, were very precious, and will be a treasured memory when most other things are forgotten.

NCOs came up for their say. These men might easily have felt some resentment at the most junior lance-jack shooting over their heads, but the words and tones were as the others. And when Corporal Jack Fennel – a man I had always admired – came up in his usual direct way and said ‘I’m damn pleased. You deserve it thoroughly.’ I could not escape the feeling that he was talking of someone else."

from Backs to the Wall, 1937. Lt G.D. Mitchell, MC, DCM.

Chris Henschke

[yellow]

Your always going to keep your old RSM if you can, no one knows the Battalion better! Unless of course your name is Croydon of the 2nd Lincolns and your punching and kicking the lads when they come in drunk behind the guard room! Thats not going to win your any points in a popularity contest

Steve.

[Coldstreamer]

Ive medals to a drill sgt that was commissioned from and into the Coldstream (he looked like a serious chap!) - but me got moved out after a short while - like to think because he was needed there more than where he was

[yellow]

Perhaps he didnt fit in at the Officers Mess. Although some the SNCO's of some regular battalions were themselves gentry. Thats something to think about.

[Coldstreamer]

Hed been in for for just under 18 years and transferred at his own request after 34 days in his old Btn

[John_Hartley]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Apr 14 2007, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which begs the question - did the CO usually get to keep the ones he answered "yes" to? Phil B

Looking at the 127th (Manchester) Brigade in its Gallipoli time, I would reckon that most promotions stayed in their Battalions, so I'd say "yes".

This result may well be skewed due to reasons of class. Almost without exception, as far as I can tell, the promotions are young men from well established local middle class families. Sons of businessmen - that sort of chap. Not your "clerks & warehousemen" type of middle-ish class who joined the Regiment's Pals' battalions.

John

[Pete L]

On the most part men from ranks given commissions were sent to other units. However I can name many cases in Territorial and Regular Battalions where this did not happen in fact almost every regiment made its old NCO's officers. I know of one territorial Sergeant who prior to WW1 jumped in ONE HOP from Sergeant to Captain.......this was only possible if he could pass the Captains exam.........being a school master he did that no problem.......an exceptional case indeed.

My grandfather was discharged as a sergeant major one day, and commissioned and made temporary captain and adjutant the next day. No exam was involved, but it was during the Great War.

Regarding changing units, he moved from a line battalion to a newly formed special reserve battalion, within the same regiment.

Pete

[Bob Doneley]

In the AIF the habit was to retain the man in the same unit once commissioned.

The digers eventually coined the phrase "one star, one stunt" to describe how many officers, commissioned from the ranks and now leading their mates into battle, would be killed or badly wounded in their first action (stunt), trying to prove themselves to their mates.

I would imagine that this was the result in all armies when an officer was leading his mates for the first time.

[stiletto_33853]

I also have a set of medals to a chap that attested 8/9/14, was posted to a service battalion on the 10/9/14, promoted L/Cpl 5/2/15, Corporal 8/1/16 and Sergeant 20/8/16. He was posted to 16th O.C.B. in the U.K. 8/6/17 and was granted a commission 25/9/17, posted straight back to his old service battalion.

He also had a couple of marks on his regimental conduct sheet for neglect of duty while in charge of a water party and disobedience of trench orders in that he allowed a Rifleman to work without his equipment or helmet.

Andy

[spike10764]

I think it would be hard to be an officer in the regiment you started as a private soldier in- especially for those who were wartime volunteers or conscripted.

[PhilB]

Why hard to be an officer but not a sergeant or WO? Phil B

[spike10764]

The status.....

I cannot speak from military experience, but I know if someone gets promoted "on the staff" at work, they have trouble trying to be one of the boys- in fact even the new post of "team leader" gets a hard time.

The ordinary soldiers of the Great War were closer to the workers of today than the professional soldiers of pre war days and believe me in a workplace it's hard to "move up" within the same department.

Sometimes it's better to start where no one knows you- a clean slate- not "I remember when he was a right layabout and now he's busy telling me to pull my finger out"....

[PhilB]

I`m still looking for guidance, gents. How come the WOs and sergeants can do it without a problem? Should be easier for the officers - experts in man handling? ( ) Phil B

[barrieduncan]

I'm with Phil here - wouldn't most battlefield commissions have been granted to NCOs as opposed to privates - and wouldn't Serjeants/CSMs/RSMs etc be used to leading the men somewhat?

[Charles Fair]

Out of 89 men commissioned from the ranks of the 19th London Regiment, 9 received commissions in the 19th. Of these, 5 had previously been a sergeant or WO2. 2 others had reached the rank of at least L/Cpl (but may have gone higher). I dont know about the remaining 2.