HMS/s E18 in the Baltic

[Signals]

Hi all,

page 109 of Forgotten Flotilla, crew photo of E19 clearly show the Russian navigating officer, telegraphist and signalman that were part of the crew. Goodhart state that the mother of E8's Russian navigating officer was trying to pull strings to have her son moved after the loss of E18. They are just not mentioned on the British list of casulties for E18. Ben Benson of E19 states their crew was around 33 due to having the Russians on board.

Darren.

[submarine]

Dear Igor

I was just going over the replys to my E18 thread and noticed your reply, which i totaly missed the first time i read them, i am very sorry for not replying and thank you very much for clearing up at least one of my mysteries.

Colin

[Signals]

Hello all,

for those interested in E18's lost date the Royal Navy Submarine Museum has now updated their website to reflect recent research into her loss.

HMS E18

2 June 1916

Lost in Baltic (unknown cause)

A torpedo attack by HMS E18 on 26th May resulted in the bows of the Destroyer V100 being blown off. Even though severely damaged the destroyer managed to limp back to port. E18 was sighted by a German aircraft off Memel on 28th May, and then by UB30 off Steinort on 1st June 1916. She was probably mined on or about 2nd June 1916 on route to Reval. The sighting was verified by German sources, namely the UB30 log book and the German naval history of war in the Baltic.

Hope this is of some help. They will always keep the official dayes as lost between 24th of May and the closing of the books on the 11 of June 1916.

Darren.

[Michael Lowrey]

Darren,

Very nice research. So we're at the usual if you will for missing WWI submarines: mines or operational loss. The next step is to understand the mine environment at the time. The German official history series is quite handy and among the most useful features are the maps. I honestly don't know the answer to this as I haven't seen/used the Baltic official history series, but it might be worth checking to see if the associated maps include a map showing German minefields in the areas were E 18 may hve been about June 2, 1916. Minefields laid just before that date would, obviously, be of particular interest.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Signals]

Hi Michael,

thanks for the compliment, i have spent alot of time on this project. The Germans did lay U mines West of Osel in April May 1916. The commader in charge of the operation rightly assummed that the Russians and British were reading their wireless transmissions. He arranged for the minelaying operations to be conducted with strict radio silence, thus the British and Russins wouldn't be aware of them. The trap for E18 was set. On the night of the 30th of May E8 was returning when they received a report of new minefields, Goodhart stopped ans waited for daylight. This must have been west of Osel as he sighted Dago in the early morning. The German offical history books don't have this map for 1916. I do however have one from a German publication from 1922. As we speak i'm arranging to get a copy of the original map from the German archives. There are now two groups interested in finding E18 now we have cleared up the events leading up to her loss. On her return E18 would always report in to the Dagerort coastguard station and check for new orders. So from the last sighting by UB-30 northwest of Steinort to the tip of Dago Island she was lost as she didn't report in to Dagerort. These minefields were in her direct path home.

Hope this is of some interest.

cathydarren@optusnet.com.au

[Signals]

Hi All,

Has anyone ever seen any Patrol Reports for E18's time while attached to Maidstone at Harwich before leaving for the Baltic on the 28-8-1915? In Forgotten Flotilla Ashmore talks of such patrols and even E18 being bombed by a Zeppelin. It's very hard trying to date much of Ashmore's memoirs from this period.

Her logs only start on the 28th of August.

Cheers Darren.

[Lörscher]

Darren,

as in my post re. E 4, here are the TNA-files for MAIDSTONE in 1915:

ADM 137 / 2068 = Comm (S) War Records, Maidstone (1915)

ADM 137 / 294 = 8th Flotilla, Reports & Orders (1915)

There you can find out, if there was any patrol made by E 18 before leaving for the Baltic.

Cheers

Oliver

[Signals]

Hi All,

Just a reply for Michael in regards to the Batic mines and E18. I spoke of having a German mine map of the Baltic from 1922. This map showed all the barriers laid from 1914 to 1918. I have since obtained the maps for the German mining operations solely for April/May 1916. This now shows that only five barriers, marked A,B,C,D,& E were in a position to sink E18. The barrier A consisted soley of 230 anti submarine U mines laid between the 1st to 4-4-1916 south west of the tip of Dago Island and directed by the Germans to be in the path of the returning British submarines. Goodhart speaks on the 9-5-1916 of the submarine operations being delayed by a mine barrier near Dago that was being swept which would make it very tricky for the returning submarines to make Dago. So possibily barrier A was swept?

The next main culprit barriers would be barriers B & C, these were regular E mines and were to the south west of barrier A but still a major problem for a sub returning to Dago Island. Although the maps are very good i'm also now waiting on the extracts from the minelayers logs which will give exact positions of where these barriers were laid.

Will keep you posted and hope this is of interest.

Darren.

[Michael Lowrey]

Darren,

Thanks for the update. I handle much of the WWI material for uboat.net and also am involved in efforts to locate and identify both British and German WWI submarine wrecks.

I definitely know the desire to get the exact position of a minefield for which you have those maps. Oddly, it may not help that much.

In my experience, the position given for minefields is not always 100% accurate. And usually, they aren't really a minefield -- what was laid was a line of mines. Locations are given from a starting point, with a lat and long position or a distance and angle to a cape. Then a distance and heading between mines or an ending point. And sometimes literally there is just a mine map -- positions aren't given. In any case, I can think of three U-boat wrecks have been located some distance from the supposed (officially recored) location of the minefields that accounted for them. As a practical matter, allow a mile from whatever the Sperrmeldung says.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Signals]

Hi Michael,

thanks for the advice, i've been told that the Germans may have been out a little even when they give positions. When i started looking it was from Memel to Reval, history hasn't been too kind to E18 when you look at what is written about her and her fate. Hopefully we will get close with what being dug up, all pieces of the jigsaw are starting to come together, there are other avenues currently being explored as well. It was the Kaisers brother who had organised these barriers in the Baltic and they were clasified as top secret. He wanted most copies of the maps destroyed to avoid them being circulated, this along with the radio silence shows how serious they were about the submarines. Possibily contact me off site for more info.

Will keep you posted.

Darren.

[Signals]

Hi All,

thought some of you may be interested in this. It's the position of where the German U-boat UB-30 sighted the periscope of an enemy submarine on the 1-6-1916. All other British subs were back in Reval at this time, so were the Russian Gepard, Bars and Volk. The Germans came to the conclusion this was E18 and rightly so. UB-30 sighted the periscope at 1500 hrs, she turned away making out she was leaving the area. Her commander then radioed the sighting into base, UB-30 then intended to reverse course at night and attack the enemy sub while she was surfaced and charging her batteries. This position was also the spot where E18 had torpedoed the V100 on the 26-5-1916 and this was a route the German warships used when leaving and travelling north from Libau, hence why E18 was submerged. UB-30 did return to this position late that night and found nothing as E18 was heading home from Memel and had been passing the area.

Hope this is of interest.

Darren.

[Michael Lowrey]

A full-color reproduction of an original German grid map (or is it an original grid map?)-- either way, very nice. I've only seen microfilmed versions which are in B&W ; I must say that the colors are quite striking on the original.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Signals]

Hi Michael,

a college of mine had the map copied from the German archives many years ago. We are working with these to come up with the mine barriers that were laid in April 1916 in this area of the Baltic. We have a map that covers the whole Baltic in this format.

Cheers DB.

[MartH]

Hi

Have you thought of contacting the Finnish War Museum, long ago as a kid I once saw a very good exhibit about the British Subs in the Baltic. It might have been on Sveaborg. They are also very interested in the mining of the Baltic, and used intelligence based upon the GW in WW2.

Regards

Mart

[Signals]

Hi Mart,

yes i contacted the Fins some time back but didn't receive an answer, i asked them for certain if the Baltic subs were raised and scrapped as i get conflicting info on this subject. So i still don't know the answer to this.

Cheers DB.

[Signals]

Hi All,

firstly thankyou Lörscher as your advice has led to finding E18's patrol report for July 1915, this was her only patrol in the North Sea prior to heading out to the Baltic. For those who have the book Forgotten Flotilla Lt Ashmore talks of a Zeppelin attack on E18. This patrol report covers this, i can now set the date for this attack as the 14-7-1915, Halahan certainly didn't write that he had surfaced to go to the toilet as the reason he was spotted and attacked. Due to this, the fact a sub could be seen so easily from the air, alarm bells rang out with the 8th Flotilla and this led to E18 being painted in the camouflage scheme she took into the Baltic.

Are there any Zeppelin/Airship experts out there that can shed any light on which ZEPPELIN carried out this attack?

Cheers DB.

[Lörscher]

Are there any Zeppelin/Airship experts out there that can shed any light on which ZEPPELIN carried out this attack?

Hi Darren,

well, I'm realy NOT an Zeppelin expert, but my notes on E 18 told me, that she "sighted" an Zeppelin on 13.07. and 14.07.1915 and this should have been L 6 (possibly the only Zeppelin out those days).

Have you details what's meant with "attack" against E 18 - bombs dropped or so ???

This incident is NOT reported in the german "Krieg zur See" volumes...

Oliver

[Signals]

Hi Oliver,

E18 arrived off the Ems on the 10-7-1915 and been testing her new 30 ft wireless masts up until 20 minutes before diving in her patrol position off the Ems. She was the first of the E CLASS fitted with these and could read HMS Maidstones messages 220 miles away. The Germans may have picked up that a sub was threr due to this. A steamer was noticed with a german Merchat Flag patrolling this area for days. On her first day there E18 tried to attack the steamer but ran aground as the ship was operating in only 3 to 4 fathoms. On the 13th a German bi-plane with large floats flew over, then a Zeppelin/airship was seen over the steamer. At about 1150 hrs on the 14th is when the attack on E18 started and until 1530 hrs when it stopped. She had bombs dropped on her at intervals and couldn't escape as the Germans could make out her outline against the sandy background, at first Halahan took E18 to 60ft but the bombs kept landing very close, he then went to 70 then 80 but still they could see him. It was when he went to maximum depth of 85 ft and altered course and finally got away. The last bomb landed directly over the top of E18 but they all exploded on impact with the water. Halahan chose not to mention he was surfaced at the time he was sighted, so a panic went through Maidstone which led E18 to be painted in those colours. Halahan stated the water was so clear he could see his bow through the periscope at 70 ft.

So it would be a navy Airship/Zeppelin, going through the German archive may be the answer to my own question i guess.

Cheers DB.

[Lörscher]

So it would be a navy Airship/Zeppelin, going through the German archive may be the answer to my own question i guess.

Darren,

thank you for additional information, most welcome !

Well, it looks as if I might head to the german archives in November or so. I should prefer to visit TNA for my researches, but I'm afraid my money doesn't allow for that :-(

I had made an note to have an look into L 6's war diary or in the war diary of the BdA (Befehlshaber der Aufklärungsstreitkräft). I have already seen the war diary of the Seeflugstation Borkum up to 24.06.1915 (!), which covers the seaplane operations off the Ems and also mentions attacks by Zeppelins, but I missed to have a look at the next volume which includes the 14.07.1915 :-)

I'm sure it's no problem to find out E 18's attacker, I keep you informed !

Oliver

[Signals]

Hi Oliver,

thankyou for that, i will see what you turn up. Now E18's patrol has report for July has been found, do you know of any other avenues to pursue things such as when E18 arrived at HMS Maidstone? The crew papers all change from HMS Dolphin to Maidstone on the 27-6-1915 so i guess this is a good guide. Of the document you told me to look at with E18's patrol report, it covers all the patrols from Maidstone of all subs but not of arrivals of E18 and E19 and their departures, i do have their secret orders though.

Also do you know of any documents that would cover things like her trials while with Dolphin? Or of crew movements such as the Draft sent out folowing E18 and E19 to the Baltic.

Cheers Darren.

[Lörscher]

do you know of any other avenues to pursue things such as when E18 arrived at HMS Maidstone?

Also do you know of any documents that would cover things like her trials while with Dolphin? Or of crew movements such as the Draft sent out folowing E18 and E19 to the Baltic.

Hi,

Crew movements - no, sorry

I know that's not so easy to find out the movements of british subs apart from her war patrols, but in your case you should have a look at MAIDSTONE's log books:

ADM 53 / 47897 = june 1915

ADM 53 / 47898 = july 1915

ADM 53 / 47899 = august 1915

etc.

Usually you will find entries like "14.20 E.18 came alongside" - "17.00 E.18 cast off" - "05.30 E.18 left" or so...

You also can try VIII. Flotilla's destroyers LURCHER, FIREDRAKE (might have escorted her in from Portsmouth, Dover)...

Also the other Depot ships at Harwich that time: ADAMANT, ALECTO...

There seems to be no surviving log book for DOLPHIN !?

Oliver

PS: I'm sure you have already seen E 18's log books ADM 173-1245 and 1246 ?

[Signals]

Hi oliver,

yes it is hard, i have Maidstone's log for when they left, but no mention of any subs. E19 did cast off from her but E18 cast off from HMS Pandora on the 28-8-1915. Most books you read say they left on the 29th which is wrong For some unknown reason Cromie put there departure down for the 29th from Harwich and everyone has used that date since. E18 and the escorting destroyer Lurcher both have the 28th.

I have yet to have a look at Pandora's logs. You are right with Lurcher and Firedrakes logs, on the 13-8-1915 E19 was carrying out torpedo practice with them and on the 18th E18 was with both destroyers and this seems the date for when Ashmore recalls Halahan they'll get 4 days leave due to them going off somewhere. On the back of a family photo they have the date as the 21-8-1915 which i believe is when they last saw him as this date means nothing to the actual photo of him which was actually taken while serving on HMS Forth from Nov 1914 to Jan 1915.

I'll look further into their logs especially around the 27-6-1915 when i believe E18 arrived at Maidstone, well if the crew papers are anything to go by.

From what i can gather Alecto was at Yarmouth, the subs would leave Harwich and go there, then head off to their patrol area, this is what E18, E13 and D7 did in July 1915. Logs are a funny thing as they truly seem to depend on the enthusiasm of the originator, out of those three subs only D7's survives for this period but E18 and E13 don't get a mention where as other logs do mention boats in company.

Cheers DB.

[Lörscher]

I have yet to have a look at Pandora's logs.

Logs are a funny thing as they truly seem to depend on the enthusiasm of the originator...

Hi Darren,

according to online catalogue there are no logbooks from PANDORA at TNA !?

With regard to the submarines logbooks: you are right, I have seen an couple of them. You also can't compare logbooks from 1915 with those from 1918, the last mentioned usually are very detailed (position, sightings), the early ones often just mention "arrived at billet"

Another possibility to track down the movements of the submarines are the "homewater telegramms" as I call them, f. e. ADM 137/127, which covers the period 26.06. to 30.06.1915, here you can find literally EVERY telegramm/message from EVERY station in Britain...

B U T it's a large box containing an thick book, full of messages, often this ugly thin paper, I'm sure you know

Well, have a nice time while searching

Oliver

[Signals]

Hi All,

just a quick note to say possibily one of the last links to the submarine E18 has left us. My grandmother Caroline Alexander Brown, nee Robinson, passed away this morning aged 91. Her father was of course E18's signalman Albert Edward Robinson. Her parents met while he was with C20 in Dundee, they married on the 30-5-1915 in Dundee, just before E18 was commisioned. She didn't want to marry him at this time as she was convinced she would be left a widow as what he was doing was too dangerous, a fair point i guess. Just before E18 left for the Baltic he found his wife pregnant with my grandmother, she was then born on the 21-4-1916. My auntie has told me the reason he wasn't on E18 when she sailed in May 1916 is that he had an appendicitis attack just before they sailed and he became gravely ill. He came back from the Baltic in Jan 1917 with the first draft home and joined E4 in May 1917. The family came to Australia in 1929. Carolines father passed away in 1956, her mother passed way in a house fire in 1964 and her brother passed away in 1979.

Below is a photo of Caroline with her parents circa 1918.

Darren.

[joseph]

Darren,

My condolences for your Grandmother and may she RIP, a nice story and one most certainly to be proud of.

Regards Charles