Signals Posted 21 July , 2008 Share Posted 21 July , 2008 Hi All, just reviving this old thread as i saw a confusing mistake on it. Getting back to what it was originally about, Russian awards for E18's crew. I'm certainly not an expert in Russian awards but an gaining a bit of an understanding. If you win say the 3rd class St George Cross, do you also wear the 4th class as well, or just the highst one? The reason i ask, is some men who got the 3rd only wear the one cross? Powell, he recieved the Cross of St George 4th Class while serving on the E9 for what i think was when they they, and the Russians, believed Horton had sunk a German destoyer, the S120 in late Jan 1915 i think it was. Then many of the same crew on E9, including Powell, received the Cross of St George 3rd Class in June 1915, and this was for the sinking of a collier, and again they thought they had sunk the destroyer S148, but they had only broke her bow off. This was the Order of Admiral Kanin # 804 as listed below per this thread, but the year was 1915, not 1916. From my understanding you progressed up from 4th to 1st with every brave act. So, did Powell recieved the Cross of St George 2nd Class when killed on E18? I have the Order of Admiral Kanin # 804 and a Russian college did confrim the awards and dates i have listed. Does anyone have the Russian Medal lists for E8 when she sank Prinz Adalbert, or when E19 sank the Undine, or E18's list Order of Admiral of Baltic Fleet #401. I have read some informationThe Essex Times, 5th May 1917, citing that Pritchett on his 4th class cross when he was onboard E19 when she sank the Undine on the 7th of November 1915, so clealy this is not true and he won it when lost on E18. I have tried the Russian Archives and been told by a researcher ther that they are closed and moving buildings. Darren. and Leading Seaman W. Powell receive cross of st. George 4th class 16/ 03/ 1915 Order of Admiral von Essen # 375 TWO CROSSES !!! Leading Seaman W. Powell receive cross of st. George 3rd class 15/ 06/ 1916 Order of Admiral Kanin # 804 (russ. archives) Able seaman H. Prittchet receive cross 4th class 2/06/1916 Order of Admiral of Baltic Fleet #401 (in russian archive) If your Philips - Able seaman A. Phillips - receive cross 4th class 2/ 06/ 1916 Order # 401 of Admiral Kanin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 12 October , 2009 Share Posted 12 October , 2009 Hi All, just a quick note, Swedes having a sniff for E18 soon, fingers crossed. Have met them recently and went out for a little cruise, they are super keen. They certainly have the right ships & equipment. Have been in constant contact with them the past few weeks over locations. Their leader is related to Admiral von Eseen, looks a little like him too! They are also trying to find the armoured cruiser Freidrich Carl. She is proving difficult. Germans gave her abandoned position, so she could have floated miles away while upside down. Just a quick follow up, all those E18 men listed as recieving the Russian Cross, they were won on eith E8, E9, & E19, not E18. So i still don't have a list to see if E18 men, other that the officers got a Cross. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 22 October , 2009 Share Posted 22 October , 2009 Hi All, if in England, tune in the Radio 4's Today programme after 07.00am tomorrow. Cheers DB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Hi All, sorry for the delay. DB http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8321516.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Well done Darren!!!!! The BBC breakfast proramme this morning gave you full recognition for your part in this discovery of the missing E18 Looking forward to anything that appears on our screens about this project you have dedicated so much time to. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsA Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Swedish media have reported on the find of E18 off the Estonian island of Dagö today. Good work in finding her. According to one newspaper, the hatch in the tower was open when found. /Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Congratulations Darren. I admire your tenacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Well done, Darren, and well done the Swedish navy! Now Alfred's shipmates last resting place is known. We will remember them. Adrian (see my sig for a vested interest in the E-class subs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Well done! A dismal indication of the ignorance of the BBC: "I didn't know that we had so many submarines in WWI" as if 18 was an unheard of number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Swedes just sent me this little teaser, UTUBE image at the bottom. Thanks for the nice words, i worked very hard for those lost boys, and for once i traced and made dam sure those poor three Russians on board actually got a mention. Oliver Lörscher, Gary Staff, Brian Head, Jimmy & Dave James, Colin Besley, Vic Powell, & James Landale all helped & supported me at some stage when many rolled the eyes and though this could not be done as there was a lot of water between Memel and Reval. When i met the Swedes they said it could take 5 years. Then in October they said they could have a sniff for 2 weeks. They designated me a chap to help plan the search and this is when i handed over 4 years of research. These guys will one day find all those missing wrecks as their Baltic survey work has located many unidentified wrecks. Once i gave them my info they had a match, and the 5 years lasted one hour before they found her. I take my hat off to them for being so bold as to have faith in what i was telling them as it went against a lot of what has been written about E18. These searches cost a fortune. They also do not pilage the wrecks as i have seen much of their work, look up DEEP SEA PRODUCTIONS. Basically you find the path subs use to get to a particular billet as they have to use certain fixes for navigation, then find what the Germans put in their way to stop them. Sounds simple, but lots of work. E18 would have been on the surface no doubt as she nearly got back to Dagerort. My studies sho she suffered a terrible navigation error, not human, but gyro, and hit the last barrier before. Her damage is all around her port side. I thought it was nice of James Landale to put his hand up and honour is great uncle today on the BBC. I have been updating the E18 families all the way with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Congratulations on a major result. The images make it look almost new.... anyway, a worthy cause which has been splendidly persued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hussar1814 Posted 23 October , 2009 Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Hi All, I would like to place the thanks of the Powell family on this forum for the hard work and devotion Darren has shown over the years. I had the great pleasure of meeting Darren this summer whilst he was at the Submarine Museum in Gosport. Thanks again on this special day. Cheers Vic Powell http://www.pns1814.co.uk/wgpowell.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
submarine Posted 23 October , 2009 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2009 Darren Hearty Congratulations , Thank you for finding her and thank you for all your help and encouragement ,enjoy the moment it is all yours . May all the boys now rest in peace . Best wishes Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 24 October , 2009 Share Posted 24 October , 2009 Hi Colin, i bet your shocked this thread you started is still going. On your original request about E18's crew geting the cross, one of the Swedes is in Russia and will have a crack at trying to solve this issue, we know the officers did. The best site for sonar image is at the bottom here. There was some confusion around what it showed amidships, but this is damage. As you mentioned to me Colin, we can now throw all of those silly theories out the window about her being sunk by the German submarine trapper K, or K.E1. Good meeting you to Vic, must be a happy & sad day for your family. The chap you all should be thanking is Carl Douglas. His passion for E18 is no different to mine and he has the ability to actually go out and find these wrecks which I don't. He would have found E18 one day, and my meeting with him just got things moving as I can research all I like but it is these boys who have to be interested. As mentioned he has the locations of so many wrecks in the Baltic that he will turn them up one by one, just a time thing and he does have the drive to do it. I was lucky my info matched perfectly with a wreck site they had. Carl is the descendant of Anthony von Essen killed when the AG14 was lost in 1917, so you can see where his interest comes from. You will notice on their UTube site, they have been the first to put out the full 33 man crew list with the 3 Russians killed. Good on them for doing that. Beats me why they never got a mention from any British lists, in fact when the official telegram was sent from the British admiralty in Petrogad only the Russian officer was listed in the list, while they also got her loss date wrong, this is where that silly date of the 24th of May came from, and they even could not get Vic Powell's relatives name right, they had him as William Prettywell. Cheers DB http://www.hydro-international.com/news/id...Submarine.html# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 24 October , 2009 Share Posted 24 October , 2009 Well done Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 25 October , 2009 Share Posted 25 October , 2009 Magnificent work, Darren. Your persistence paid off in spades! That's a great brief YouTube clip provided by the Swedish friends. More to come, I would hope. I notice that ERA James GALLOWAY, R.N.R., is missing from the In Memoriam List on the clip. Sub-Lieut. Leslie ASHMORE has been included instead (to make up the 33) but obviously wasn't on that last patrol. I've just cross-checked the casualties on CWGC (see list below). Unless noted otherwise, CWGC indicates casualties were Royal Navy and E18. You previously mentioned GABY was from E8 (replacing your grandfather). I don't doubt you're right but CWGC have him as E18. On that point, they show the following casualties as E8: BAGG, EDWARDS, FOX, GODWARD, GUEST, HUNT, NYE and TURRALL. Are these all mistakes, do you think, or could it be that some were assigned to E8 but were making up numbers for those off sick or otherwised indisposed? regards, Martin H.M. Submarine E18 HALAHAN, ROBERT CROSBY, Lieut-Commander http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3036410 LANDALE, WALTER LUKE, Lieutenant http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3037036 COLSON, DOUGLAS NOWELL, Sub-Lieutenant, R.N.R. http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2876232 POLYKARPOV, Vasily Mikhailovich, Lieutenant BAGG, EDWIN ALBERT TAYLOR, Chief Petty Officer, H.M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2875520 BASS, WILLIAM GEORGE, Leading Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3050571 CLACK, FREDERICK, Petty Officer http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2876145 DUFFIELD, PERCY, Stoker 1st Class http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2865818 EDWARDS, CLEMENT HARRY, Leading Telegraphist, H.M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2876624 FOX, ERNEST ALFRED, Stoker 1st Class, H.M. S/M "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3050963 FULLER, MAURICE HAROLD, Engine Room Artificer 2nd Class http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2876881 GABY, GEORGE, Telegraphist http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3036200 GALLOWAY, JAMES KERR, Engine Room Artificer, R.N.R. http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2866000 GODWARD, CYRIL FRANCIS, Able Seaman, H.M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051009 GUEST, THOMAS EDWIN, Leading Stoker, H.M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3036385 HALL, ALBERT GEORGE, Stoker 1st Class http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051049 HARRIS, HERBERT THOMAS, Leading Stoker http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3036467 HOLLAND, CHARLES WILLIAM, Engine Room Artificer 3rd Class http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051120 HUNT, CHARLES, Stoker 1st Class, H.M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3036769 MADDOX, FRANK LADBROOKE, Able Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3037342 MARKOVSKY, Fyodor Nikolaevich, Chief Telegraphist NYE, PERCY JAMES PETER, Stoker 1st Class, H.M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051437 PANTYUKHOV, Ivan Yelimovich, Signalman PERCY, JAMES REUBEN, Leading Stoker http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051488 PHILLIPS, ARTHUR PERCY, Leading Stoker http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3037983 POWELL, WILLIAM GEORGE, Able Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3038052 PRITCHETT, HORACE EDWARD, Able Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051526 RUAUX, ERNEST WILLIAM, Leading Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3038297 SHEPPARD, SAMUEL ARTHUR, Chief Stoker http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3038438 SPENCER, WILLIAM CHADWICK, Engine Room Artificer 1st Class http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3038592 TURRALL, CHARLES WILLIAM, Petty Officer, H.M. S/M. S/M. "E/8." http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3038890 WELSH, SYDNEY AUGUSTUS, Able Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2867565 WHITE, FREDERICK, Leading Seaman http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3051833 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 26 October , 2009 Share Posted 26 October , 2009 Hi Martin, Gaby was E8, no doubt. He got kicked of by Goodhart for knicking beer. He spent 90 days in the cells and when he got out he did not return to E8 and went to spare crew, as his place was taken by a signalman who came over in the September draft to the Baltic. Although a Telegraphist, the signalman could take his place as he would only be taking on Gaby's diving station and thus would not have to use the wireless as this was done by the Russian telegraphist. Stupid time to knick the beer as he then just missed out on all the bounty money from the Prinz Adalbert sinking. So Gaby is listed as E18 as he was taken from spare crew and was killed on her. As were two others in that crew list. So Gaby will always be listed as E18 soley due to this, i doubt if we would have ever known he had set foot on E18 had he not been killed. Your right those others are all mistakes, Ashmore no, Galloway yes, the others you have as E8 are E18 only. Cheers DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 27 October , 2009 Share Posted 27 October , 2009 For those interested, here is a book by the chaps who found E18. They gave me a copy & signed it when i met them this year. Well worth getting. It has S.M.S. Prinz Adalbert, the Aachen sunk by E1, & E19's merchant victims plus much more. The photography by Jonas Dahm has to be seen to be believed, looks like he is not even under water. They consider the German Aachen their favorite dive in the Baltic due to her state of preservation. https://bookshop.si.se/shop/shop/showItem.a...-1&itemID=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hussar1814 Posted 10 November , 2009 Share Posted 10 November , 2009 Hi All, Just a quick note, last Sunday during the usual low key wreath laying service at the Submarine Museum in Gosport 3 families from the crew of E18 were represented and a wreath was laid on the memorial. I represented the Powell family, Robert and Dudley Davenport represented the Halahan family and Jill .... nee Colson represented the Colson family. Cheers Vic Powell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hussar1814 Posted 10 November , 2009 Share Posted 10 November , 2009 Hi All, Further to this old thread that has obviously reared up again following the find of E18 I still have a few questions regarding my Great Grandfather and would love to find out: A: Why he was rated down and transfered to E18 from E9 (Discussions with Darren in the summer led us to think probably boredom and drink led to the demotion but a proper answer would be great). B: If the crew was awarded a medal on the loss of E18 he should have been awarded a 2nd class St Georges Cross so 3 medals from the Russians very rare for a british rating or serviceman of that time? C: W G Powell was 46 years old at the time of his death the oldest member of the crew and probably the oldest sailor in the Baltic? Any pointers to answers to these questions would be great but I'm not holding my breath, finaly finding out what happened to E18 is something we thought would never happen. Cheers Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 11 November , 2009 Share Posted 11 November , 2009 Hi Vic, all the diaries i have read from this time and still no reference to why he went from Leading Seaman to Able Seaman. Before the arrivial of the first draft of spare crew in September 1915 there were few chances of an offending man to be thrown in the cells and via his papers we can see he served no time for an offence. He also has not lost a Good Conduct Badge. He could have opted for this himself in relation for not wanting the responsibilites? I have seen evidence of E1 men being used on E9 showing how short of spare crew they must have been in that first year in the Baltic. He was rated back to an Able Seaman in September 1915, and i would suggest he joined E18 around the 19th of October 1915 as this is when 2 of her crew were thrown in the cells for stealing Halahan's booze. Powell only had a short cell time of 3 days in 1897! But also i note that he was rated an Able Seaman on the 13th of September 1915, which is the date E18 arrived in Reval. Unless we can find a diary, or something about this i doubt we will ever know, but i will continue to sniff. Common crimes i have read about in the Baltic, stealing booze, stealing rations and selling them for much more ashore, fights with Russin crew and so on. The E18 crew getting medals, i hope someone proves me wrong here, but other than officers and the men that won them on other subs, i still can not find the proof the ratings actually got a Russian Cross. I have just had contact from another E18 family, so i will ask them if they have a Russian medal. As we found that very clear crew photo, your relative is wearing the 3rd & 4th Class Cross of St George, and it would be nice to know if he did get the 2nd as this would be very rare for a British rating indeed! I do have a contact within St Petersburg that could find out for you, she charges a a fee, but i would suggest this is your best shot. I would suggest William was possibily the oldest British rating in the Baltic, but i would have to check this out as some of the Petty Officers were around this age. There were not to many men in their 40's who would enjoy the rough times an E Class sub offered up in the Baltic! Hope you had a wonderful day at the musuem, you have only wiated 93 years for that! Happy rememberance day! Cheers DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 20 March , 2010 Share Posted 20 March , 2010 I noticed the article in The Age this morning, Darren. Well done!! Submarine quest ends in the depths of the Baltic Sea I take it you'll be attending the memorial in Estonia at the end of May? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 20 March , 2010 Share Posted 20 March , 2010 Hi Martin, you would have to expose the world of the GWF to my ugly dial. Not sure they or the world are ready for it! Re the Memorial in Tallinn, we are trying to drum up some support and create some interest as I would hate for anyone to bob up and miss such a special one of occasion after the event. The chap organizing this is Rob Davenport who's grandmother was Halahan's widow, so if anyone is interested contact me here and I’ll put you in touch with Rob. You don’t have to be family, as it is just paying your respects to these men. There will be a plaque unveiled in one of the churches around the area of the Old Town’s Square, so they will never be forgotten when British tourists visit. Basically it is a final goodbye for these men, all they ever got was a simple service on the quarterdeck of the Russian depot ship Dvina when they were a few days overdue. The British priest in Petrograd came down, as he would every so often, and prayed for the safe return. Rob is also doing a great job on the War Grave front and raising her status which seems to be getting favourable responses. It has been revealed that 2 days after her finding was announced Latvian divers contacted the Estonian Maritime Museum wanting to know details of where she is with a firm view of diving her. Also some Estonian divers want to know. There seems no concern from them that she is still owned by the British Government, they have no personal connection to E18 so one wonders their motives. Even if she gets a higher status, how do you police it? You can now see the logic in not disclosing exactly where she is as some people would not give a dam about her dead so long as they get their little souvenir of have a new dive site to make money from. There are some good guys in the diving world, and the shame and unfair that they get tarred with the same brush. E18 is highly vulnerable without doubt, the only British WW1 sub you will find in the Baltic, and in 100 years time when all other E Class subs have rusted away, she will still be there due to the conditions of the Baltic. While in the Baltic the families will also like to get the support of the Estonians as without their kind help E18 will end up on the mantle shelf of some underwater thieves. E18 needs everyone’s support in England as she is special due to her condition & location. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted 20 March , 2010 Share Posted 20 March , 2010 Agreed. Its an enthralling tale and well worth a documentary. Thought about a BBC Timewatch slot ? I'd be extremely cautious about working with some of the director/producers out there (...been there...done it...teeshirt - I have the scars) but your BBC contact may be useful here. BBC2 have an intelligent narrative-driven approach wheras the vast majority of directors cut corners by assembling their narrative around archive footage cobbled on to the wreck search (cf History Channel). Throw in a couple of academics/naval authorities culled from the TV documentary circuit (who will undoubtedly know infinitely less about the context than you do) add a one or two present day descendents to add emotion and relevance. Beyond the BBC and the occasional gem elsewhere, contructing accounts of lost vessels tends to be doc making by numbers. The aspect that fascinates me about this wreck is the level of preservation of uniforms and human remains. Beyond the fact of preservation itself, how much of the uniforms were preserved ? Could you identify officer from rating ? (not as ludicrous as its sounds for anyone familiar with the story of a certain British submarine crew now resting at Ohlsdorf in Hamburg) Its absolutely awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals Posted 20 March , 2010 Share Posted 20 March , 2010 Hi Clio, as with nearly all newspaper articles, they are given all the data and still there are inaccuracies that creep in. There was talk around a presumption that the remains and uniforms would still be there, and it went into print as fact, quite a few other inaccuracies in there as well. If you were to go by the wreck of the German auxiliary Aachen sunk by E1 in 1915, she is in a similar state of preservation as E18, all wooden stairs are still in place, wooden brooms still as they were and so on. Take the Swedish version of the Mary Rose the Wasa, they even found sails, she is unbelievably intact after 500 years. E18, as you would have seen by the hatch image, is in such a good state of preservation and with little or no marine growth, she will be a magnet if her location gets out. She is not even embedded in sand and is sitting upright on her keel. I have seen the full set of ROV photos and her level of preservation is unparalleled. She just has mine damage on her port side just after of the CT which is bent over onto the hull, so hopefully this blocks her from being entered. Let’s just hope the dive site people leave her alone, wishful thinking. Wouldn'tyou just like to kick in the top of their familes graves to see how they would like it. The Estonian Maritime museum put out a piece in their local magazines that give these illegal divers an absolute pasting. Here is the translated version I have, well part of it! The Estonian’s are sympathetic to the British over such issues. Lucrative maritime graves Already two days after the press release announcing the find a group of Latvian wreck divers called the Maritime museum for information and told about their firm desire to dive to E18. Similar wishes have been expressed also by Estonian divers. Strange how one maritime grave allures people to engage in questionable activities – some to enter the maritime area of another country without seeking approval; others to dive recklessly to a military ship of known country of origin, where family members and relatives would wish respect and peace to those resting on board. However hoped peace for the perished sailors and due respect to the maritime grave is not something the divers are willing to consider in their impatience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now