Early War German Uniform

[4thGordons]

Here is a detail from a photograph I just picked up which I think is a German official / press picture. Can anyone provide anything on this chap? Rifle seems to be a standard GEW 98 but I was wondering if anything can be discerned from the helmet/collar/cuffs? He appears to be guarding a group of Gordons POWs (I assume 1st Bn?) putting up a fence. Thanks in advance

Chris

[john in minnesota]

By the cuffs, collar litzen and helmet eagle you can tell he is from a Garde Regt.

[eparges]

He appears to be wearing an old type tunic (Dunkelblau), and having double litzen on collar and cuffs, with swedish cuffs, so would make him Garde Regiment zu Fuss 1-4, his Pickelhaube appears to have the Garde-adler...Perhaps a reservist (he appears a bit older), and serving behind the lines (some units went to war dressed in Dunkelblau, but mainly Landwehr/sturm, Feldgendarmerie (but then his helmet would have been the dragoner-type and cuffs lightblue).

[trenchtrotter]

Note the chin strap on the picklehaulbe. Pre war scales that were replaced with the leather strap early on in the war. This guy really is in pre war uniform. Very early war time photo?

TT

[4thGordons]

Thanks everyone.

My interest comes from the prisoners but I wanted to know as much about the picture as possible.

I think it is possible these are POWs from the 1 Bn Gordon Highlanders captured in 1914 after Le Cateau on the night of 26/27 August 1914 near Clary. So the picture would probably be later in the autumn of 1914. The highlanders have spats and hose tops which also suggests early war to me.

I have attached the complete picture FYI below, perhaps someone has seen it published and can confirm/deny some of my suppositions - to me it has all the hallmarks of an official picture, but I have no provenance at all.

Thanks again for the information on the uniform.

Chris

[Cam_s]

very interesting picture.

You can see the role of chicken wire at the bottom right of the picture. That with the large poles makes me think that they are building thier own Prisioner of War Cage. Another point for it being early war since there were no pre-set PW points.

I guess it would have been a very long wait if they were captured right at the begining. But I would guess better to be captured than some of the other horrors that they could have expiereced.

Cam

[wyliecoyote]

It could be the way the light was, as you can hardly see the bayonet lug under the barrel of his Gew 98, but, I don't see an outline of a Garde Star on his helmet plate. He could also be a Garde Grenadier.

[yellow]

I met a Vet captured at Mons and I can tell you that being a 1914 POW was not a piece of cake.

The prisoners of 1914 were humiliated, no proper sanitation was provided and soldiers were kicked around. Many did die in captivity and not always because of wounds but because of starvation.

My friend being one of the first was given special treatment in that he was laughed at, and paraded before German troops who were advancing into the line in 1914. The German officers would point at my friend.......and make jesticulations that this was what the German army was fighting. He was only a young skiny lad, part of the regimental band, a German officer ripped his SB armband off when he was captured.

There were however some times when the POWs would get their own back. On another occasion a German officer approached my friend and said, "I can speak your English". A quick witted cockney of the 1st Lincolns piped up and said "thats ****** all, I can too".

I cannot begin to imagine what it must of been like to of been a POW in Germany 1918.........the population of Germany didnt even have enough food to feed itself let alone POWs. On the most part what the POWs had to eat was no better than food for farm yard animals.

No doubt Germany and her allies suffered at the hands of the allies but I am sure they werent starving in the POW camps in the UK. Then again, I guess it couldnt be helped.

Steve.

[Joe Sweeney]

Thanks everyone.

My interest comes from the prisoners but I wanted to know as much about the picture as possible.

I think it is possible these are POWs from the 1 Bn Gordon Highlanders captured in 1914 after Le Cateau on the night of 26/27 August 1914 near Clary. So the picture would probably be later in the autumn of 1914. The highlanders have spats and hose tops which also suggests early war to me.

I have attached the complete picture FYI below, perhaps someone has seen it published and can confirm/deny some of my suppositions - to me it has all the hallmarks of an official picture, but I have no provenance at all.

Thanks again for the information on the uniform.

Chris

Chris,

I think you have a mixed bag of prisoners. The photo is early but could well also be into the spring of 1915 with prisoners taken earlier.

Only the man on the extreme right is a Gordon, by his hose, black buttons on gaiters and garters.

The man to his immediate left looks to be an A&SH, although the dicing on his glengarry is a bit imprecise on my viewer so he could be a Seaforths too, although the white stripes on Seaforths kilts usually show very well..

Also the highlander on the extreme left is also a non gordon and either a Seaforth or A&SH, although by the kilt he too looks like an A&SH man.

If there are A&SH men then the photo dates no earlier than Sept 1914 and of a group of prisoners not associated with any particular action.

Joe Sweeney

[wyliecoyote]

I came across this picture today & immediately remembered this thread. This group is from the Ersatz Kompanie 3, Eisenbahn (Railroad) Regt. 2. Perhaps these type troops were pressed into taking control of the P.O.W.s in your photo, and they were building a holding pen close to a rail line for shipment to the rear, perhaps even back in Germany. Just a guess ofcoarse.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/6272/er...2gnw0611bl6.jpg

This photo is dated 1 November 1914

[Stebie9173]

The following Topic I posted illustrates what could happen to a POW - Robert Varder was captured on 5-4-1918 at Hangard Wood, and was a human skeleton by January 1919. An image reminiscent of a different war...

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=45428&hl=

Steve.

[Rob B]

Well spotted Joe you beat me to it there is an A&SH jock at work from the dicing on the glengarry.

Rob

[findabetterole]

Hello Chris... excellant photo by the way.

A couple of chums have given ideas as to the identification of the guards parent regiment (bottom pic below). I agree with the uniform details.. it is the pre-war Blue. I cannot fully identify the regiment, but there are three possabilities as to the grouping. I have illustrated those as pics: 'L', 'C', and 'R' below. On studying the side view of the Pickelhaube Eagle, I do not think that a star is present as in pics 'L' & 'C', for the sillhuette if too flat. My decision would be to say that the guard belongs to a regiment which wears the eagle of pic 'R'. Im certain that there is a chum who can positively identify this.

Seph

[findabetterole]

Chris... A question about one of the prisoners.

Are the marks on the chaps left sleave, (as illustrated in the pic below) of any significance, or do you think they are just 'wear-n-tear'?

Seph

[centurion]

He seems to be overdressed for the occasion, when not on parade or in a combat environment the dienstermutze (service cap) would be worn instead of the full dress pickelhaube (or the picklehaube with a cover). I suspect that this is the German equivalent of 'Corporal Jones' all dressed up for the benefit of the camera man gallantly guarding those dangerous POWs (who do not seem in any danger of over exerting themselves). In other words it is at least partly posed.

[findabetterole]

Centurion..... would you say that this pic has been specially posed for the propaganda industry?

Seph

[keithfazzani]

Looking at the photo looks like they are digging in stubble - therefore after harvest. The trees are in full leaf. So would guess photo is in September or thereabouts? The soil looks very sandy and dry which might help with the location.

[centurion]

Bootnecks. Its always possible or it could just be the hack from the local paper looking for a good photo. Whichever its unlikely that an amateur photographer would have been allowed to just wander in and take photos of the POWs. The so;diers leaning on their shovels appear to be aware that is some form of photo opportunity for their guard. Who knows it may have been a golden opportunity to take a rest.