PhilB Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 The family`s surname starts with P (FWP engraved below crest). The motto looks like SPE FOSTERI TEMPORIS. Any idea? Phil B
BeppoSapone Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Apr 7 2007, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The family`s surname starts with P (FWP engraved below crest). Any idea? Phil B Can you add the motto to the post? I can't quite read it.
John_Hartley Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 I think the motto translates as "Friend of Time" (based on studying Latin at school for 1 year, circa 1964) John
PhilB Posted 7 April , 2007 Author Posted 7 April , 2007 Can you add the motto to the post? I can't quite read it. It`s there, Beppo.
Steven Broomfield Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 The shell is the symbol of St Jaems, and signifies a pilgrimage, I believe (School Governor os St James' CE School - I knew it would have its uses!).
PhilB Posted 7 April , 2007 Author Posted 7 April , 2007 I think SPE = hope and TEMPORIS = of time (as JH rightly points out). I can`t find a latin word FOSTERI. Maybe a name?
Ian Riley Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 As shown, this is a crest rather than a coat of arms. A crest is what appears above the shield of arms, often on top of a helmet. On the assumption that it is British (or Irish) I can not find Spe fosteri temporis in any of the standard works or on Google. Spe posteri temporis is a possibility. The motto quoted as used by the family of Atcherley (Burke's General Armory 1884) or Atcherly and (not very helpfully) by a family called Jones according to http://www.heraldryclipart.com/mottoes.html which is based in turn on Elvin's 'Book of Mottoes'. Fairbairn's 'Crests of Families of Great Britain and Ireland' throws up Atcherly from the motto. Unfortunately my copy is pre 1905 when a bloke called Fox-Davies revised it and organised the pictures of the crests as an 'ordinary' by grouping similar ones (such as all those featuring shells - technical heraldic term 'escallop') together. Otherwise there are 2000 randomly organised (I think that means disorganised) pictures to leaf through - I'll do that in a couple of weeks if you haven't got the answer by then but PM to remind me! Bit busy at the moment. There are lots of other Jones families using lots of other mottoes. Strictly the crest should only be used by the family to which it is granted by the College of Arms, the Lord Lyon (in Scotland) and by the Irish heraldic authority (now the Chief Herald of Ireland). However, a lot of people just lifted crests which matched their surname or pinched one from their mother's family (I have a cigarette case with the crest of one Butler family, the motto of another and it was the owner's middle name - probably just lifted at random out of a reference book in the jeweller's or at the engraver's). So the initials might not be a 100% reliable guide. I would be interested to know where it is, what it's on and what sort of date if you have the time. Ian
Ian Riley Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 I should have added to the above that the crest quoted for Atcherley/Atcherly is not actually (pun) anything like the the one posted here. The crest of Athcherly is a demi-bustard (as in bird) couped (cut) gules (red) wings elevated or (gold) in the beak a lily ... What's the bell like thing below the main crest and just above the motto? It does look just a bit like an heraldic representation of a lily. The escallop was certainly the symbol of St James (the disciple I think as opposed to any other) and somewhere I have a book on the heraldry of the escallop (published by Shell Oil years ago). I'll have a look. Motto Spe posteri temporis = In the hope of the future (Fairbairn's Crests) Ian
BeppoSapone Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 The shell is the symbol of St Jaems, and signifies a pilgrimage, I believe (School Governor os St James' CE School - I knew it would have its uses!). The shell definately is that, and was notably used by pilgrims going to Santiago de Compostela in northern Spain. Still much used today: http://www.santiago-compostela.net/ingles/index_ci_en.html Looks like Ian Riley has looked where I was going to look, once I had a motto to work with.
John_Hartley Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 Phil Quite often a motto will have a pun on the family name. You have, possibly, "posteri" in the motto and "P" in the initials. Could be a link. What is the context? What's the crest on? John
PhilB Posted 7 April , 2007 Author Posted 7 April , 2007 It`s on a sword blade. Victorian, but hard to date with any accuracy. It may be Maj F W Peacock, Derbyshire Yeomanry (In 1914) , but the initials aren`t enough to go on. Phil B
Muerrisch Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 The shell is the symbol of St Jaems, and signifies a pilgrimage, I believe (School Governor os St James' CE School - I knew it would have its uses!). At the risk [nay, certainty] of confirming my pedantry, is it really James' ? How many Jameses is the school named after, I wonder? I submit James's might be an improvement.
Steven Broomfield Posted 7 April , 2007 Posted 7 April , 2007 Well, at the risk of exposing my appalling typing to yet more ridicule, for some reason we use James', as opposed to James's. Interestingly, there are two football grounds called after St James. Newcastle United play at St James' Park, whereas Exeter City play at St James's Park. You pays your money......and there's never a pedantry certificate-holder when you want one.
Muerrisch Posted 8 April , 2007 Posted 8 April , 2007 Yes. Whales Wales Wales's valleys The Waleses Prince of Wales's Own Gurkhas The Waleses's house [palace then] or Waleses' in some usages Mind you, there is a problem with Jesus: 'All hail the power of Jesus's name', or is it Jesu's pronounced jeesyous ............ the bog mindles.
PhilB Posted 8 April , 2007 Author Posted 8 April , 2007 For the benefit of those members who don`t have a library of Pedants` Guides:-
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 April , 2007 Posted 8 April , 2007 St James' website! Historical usage, but as it's named after the local Church (St James'), I guess the local Bishop should take the rap.
truthergw Posted 8 April , 2007 Posted 8 April , 2007 St James' website! Historical usage, but as it's named after the local Church (St James'), I guess the local Bishop should take the rap. Bishops eh? What are they like!
BeppoSapone Posted 8 April , 2007 Posted 8 April , 2007 ....I guess the local Bishop should take the rap. Stop bashing the Bishop Steven!
Tom Morgan Posted 8 April , 2007 Posted 8 April , 2007 What follows is pure guesswork and speculation........ Kent's Directory for the Year 1794, Cities of London and Westminster, & Borough of Southwark, has a Robert Foster, Sword Cutler, at 68, St. James's Street. Supposing this company or its successor made or supplied the sword and to give themselves a bit of cred they put together a fake heraldic device to be etched onto their blades. The St. James scallop shell would refer to their address, and for a motto they took a well-known one and made a joke version of it by putting in their name - Fosteri instead of Posteri. 99% certain to be completely wrong - but I'm rather proud of it. Tom
Steven Broomfield Posted 8 April , 2007 Posted 8 April , 2007 Jeepers, Tom. Ngaio Marsh, Dorothy L Sayers, Conan Doyle, Ian Rankin, eat your hearts out I'll settle for your explanation...I'll even put my name down for a copy of your first detective novel.
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