Gordon Haymes Posted 1 April , 2007 Share Posted 1 April , 2007 Dear Members, On a recent trip to the Somme I was introduced to the Principle of the town of Aubercourt nr Villers Bretonneux. I was shown an SMLE with this ID disc in the Butt of the rifle, knowing little about arms I agreed to see if I could find out any information this disc could provide. Is it possible to trace a rifles history via this item ? In anticipation of your help i thank you Regards Gordon J Haymes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 1 April , 2007 Share Posted 1 April , 2007 Appears to my eye to be to the 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, a unit of interest to me since one of my relatives, Isaac Shortman (see signature) was killed serving with them in 1914. What was the date of the SMLE - you never know, it might have been the one that he was carrying if it's an early issue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 1 April , 2007 Share Posted 1 April , 2007 2nd battalion Seaforth Highlanders, rifle 499. mayby wrong though, wait untill a better versed pal turns up. Garron :edit: andrew beat me too it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 1 April , 2007 Share Posted 1 April , 2007 2nd battalion Seaforth Highlanders, rifle 499. mayby wrong though, wait untill a better versed pal turns up. Garron I believe 499 will be the rack number, not the rifle number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 1 April , 2007 Share Posted 1 April , 2007 I had the regiment right 1 out of 2 aint bad Garron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Haymes Posted 1 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2007 Thankyou Gentlemen, as the french owner knows little in the way of fire arms, what other information will be on the rifle to date it ??...........I can E-mail him and ask him to pass the details on to me. As my French is poor and was at the time speaking through a translater the only thing I could gleen was that it was a very "early" model. Regards Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 1 April , 2007 Share Posted 1 April , 2007 under the bolt where the buttstock connects to the rifle should be the manufactuing details (photo from www.deactivated-guns.co.uk) hope this helps Garron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Haymes Posted 1 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2007 Thanks Garron, E-mail on its way with photo !! Regards Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRab Posted 2 April , 2007 Share Posted 2 April , 2007 I believe 499 will be the rack number, not the rifle number. Out of interest how many riflres would there be in a rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 3 April , 2007 Share Posted 3 April , 2007 Out of interest how many rifles would there be in a rack. I've absolutely no idea, perhaps one of the more enlightened forum members will quote chapter and verse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 3 April , 2007 Share Posted 3 April , 2007 I've absolutely no idea, perhaps one of the more enlightened forum members will quote chapter and verse! Out of Curiousity I took a look in the "Instructions for Armourers, 1912 w/amendments to 1916" and the number is not called a rack number. The instructions just say "consecutive number of arm". Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 3 April , 2007 Share Posted 3 April , 2007 "Rack" number is simply a convenient term for the "consecutive number of arm" in a unit. Since rifles were usually numbered within an infantry battalion and there were approximately 1000 men in a battalion the highest number is likely to be in the 900s, allowing for officers and non-rifle armed troops. In the case of other, smaller, units the number might be lower. However, this assumes that replacement weapons were numbered to gaps in the range and that the numbering series was not just carried on from the last number used. I suspect the former was the case though as I have looked at hundreds over the years on all types of weapons and most tend to be three digit numbers. This is a .256" pattern 1907 rifle (6.5mm Arisaka) issued to 2/13 London Regiment in January 1915 with a rack number of 902. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 3 April , 2007 Share Posted 3 April , 2007 "Rack" number is simply a convenient term for the "consecutive number of arm" in a unit. It sounds like Rack number, "consecutive number of arm" , and rifle number are all equivalent terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 4 April , 2007 Share Posted 4 April , 2007 It sounds like Rack number, "consecutive number of arm" , and rifle number are all equivalent terms? I was thinking more along the lines of not allowing the "consecutive number of arm" (as I now know to call it) to become confused with the serial number of each rifle, which is truely a unique and individual number (as far as I know!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gew98 Posted 4 April , 2007 Share Posted 4 April , 2007 Here's two examples. One is a disc on a 1911 SMLE marked to the Kings Royal Rifle corps. Second is a disc from a 1900 dated Danzig Gew98 marked to the 120th Wurttemberg Inf Regt. The german and the british disc have two similarities - the parent unit identifier , and a weapon number. The weapon number on both is a number assigned to it by the unit it "belongs" to. Something akin to a property book number for control purposes. Bayonets in brit and german service often got the same markings applied to them , though the germans were more vigilant in these regards. So while it is not a "rack" number or serial number it is a number that the unit's ordnance types would have had listed in their "property/arms ledgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gew98 Posted 4 April , 2007 Share Posted 4 April , 2007 Here's two examples. One is a disc on a 1911 SMLE marked to the Kings Royal Rifle corps. Second is a disc from a 1900 dated Danzig Gew98 marked to the 120th Wurttemberg Inf Regt. The german and the british disc have two similarities - the parent unit identifier , and a weapon number. The weapon number on both is a number assigned to it by the unit it "belongs" to. Something akin to a property book number for control purposes. Bayonets in brit and german service often got the same markings applied to them , though the germans were more vigilant in these regards. So while it is not a "rack" number or serial number it is a number that the unit's ordnance types would have had listed in their "property/arms ledgers. PS - here's a closeup of the markings on an SMLE "socket". As well an example of another german butt disc that shows ownership by the 13th Bavarian Inf regt but oddly enough no company nor waffe nummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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