.303 AMMUNITION CRATES-WW1-ANY PICTURES?

[mark holden]

I wonder if any of the Pals have a picture of the WW1 wooden ammunition crate that .303 ball ammunition came in, including any labels?

Thanks

Mark

[montbrehain]

Have a look here "MO" http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/showitem.asp?itemRef=VS017

[mark holden]

Thanks very much, I have tried this site but can only view the thumbnail pics which are just a little too small.

Have a look here "MO" http://www.tommyspackfillers.com/showitem.asp?itemRef=VS017

[Chris Henschke]

Some of the labels appear incorrect for Mark VII ammunition on that website - at least, not in accordance with any of the Notes on Ammunition handbooks issued between 1915 and 1918.

Chris Henschke

[walrus]

Some of the labels appear incorrect for Mark VII ammunition on that website - at least, not in accordance with any of the Notes on Ammunition handbooks issued between 1915 and 1918.

Chris Henschke

The labels were copied from an ammunition crate in the collection of the Imperial War Museum.

That doesn't mean that they are correct according to regulations, but merely that they were copied from an original with some provenance.

Tom the Walrus

[TonyE]

I believe I have the Woolwich drawing for the crate somewhere. I will try to find it and post it.

Regards

TonyE

[Chris Henschke]

These are some of the correct 'distinguishing marks'. Note the colour codes.

[TonyE]

Chris

Your examples look like they come from "Treatise on Ammunition 1915" and I agree they differ from the reproduction examples copied from the crate in the IWM.

I wonder however if the labels illustrated in the Treatise are strictly correct and not an "interpretation" of the description given in List of Changes.

LoC Para. 15629 dated 21 Sep 1911 introduced the Mark VII ball round approved on 3 Nov 1910 together with the distinguishing label for the packaging. It states "The descriptive and distinguishing labels on boxes containing the above mentioned ammunitionwill differ from the previous labels (LoC 7603, 12155) in being printed in green, overstamped with "VII" in black, as shown on the accompanying typical drawing"

This is the type of label being reproduced. The label in the treatise certainly fits the description of being green with "VII" overprinted in black, but not in the same format as shown in LoC.

It is not the first time that a military publication has shown an erroneous diagram or picture, when the writers misinterpret a written description.

For my own part, in forty years of studying and collecting .303 ammunition I have never seen a label like that illustrated in the Treatise.

Regards

TonyE

[Chris Henschke]

Tony,

The example I used is from Explanatory List of Service Markings and is the same in the 1915, 1917 and 1918 editions. It is also used in the Treatise as you say.

Here are some examples that conform to those instructions. I have only seen boxes SAA for Mk VI and Mk VII ammunition [still with original labels], here in Australia and all of the Mk VI labels are red and the MK VII green. That seems to conform with the doctrine. I have an original example of one label that is green with the black overprint.

I'd be keen to see the diagram for the box, SAA, 1000 rds if you can find it.

Chris Henschke

[Chris Henschke]

This is one illustration from Exlanatory List of Service Markings, dated 1917, also in accordance with List of Change §15629.

[Chris Henschke]

This is one illustration from Exlanatory List of Service Markings, dated 1915, again green with black VII overprint.

[TonyE]

Hi Chris

Nice pictures. I do not have a copy of the List of Service Markings, only the Treatise.

I misunderstood your original post, I thought you were commenting on the diagonally overprinted VII on the Treatise examples. I had not noticed the red grid on the reproduction labels - sorry for that. Cancel previous comments about misinterpretation and never seeing one. I agree the grid should be green and I have never seen a RED one on Mark VII labels. My original comment was that I had not seen a diagonally overprinted "VII".

Early .303 boxes and labels are very hard to find in the UK. What date is your very nice box?

I will try to find the .303 box drawing, but here is a slightly off topic picture, the box for 600 rounds of .256" ammo for the Arisakas in British service.

Regards

TonyE

[grantsmil]

All the MkVI labels I have seen have been red, and all the MkVII are green.

Attached is an image from an ammunition box of.303 MkVI ammunition in chargers, showing the somewhat faded red printed label, with the word CHARGERS printed diagonally across.

I was under the impression that the intention of the very different label colours was to readily identify the MarkVI ammunition from the Mark VII.

Just speculating.

[mark holden]

To all who answered provided pics and info thank you very much, its exactly what I was looking for, again thank you.

regards

Mark

[Chris Henschke]

There is a variation in the construction that is sometimes found. Most corners are dovetailed (IAW with the instructions), some are finger jointed but many of the type seen in Australia have a strange angled finger joint. Here is an example of a 1917 dated box refilled repainted in 1945. I have spoken to every carpenter and cabinet maker I know and none can tell the correct name for this joint (and none have ever seen it before).

The other variation is with or without cleats on the ends for the rope handles.

Chris Henschke

[Chris Henschke]

Another type of closure (instead of the brass T - shaped toggle) has a tinned plate approximately 2" by 3/4". The image shows the remnants of the label that was used to seal it. This box also has the 'angled finger joint' and the correct label for Mark VI ammunition. CAC in Australia made Mark VI ammunition as late as 1917. I'm sure TonyE could tell us when they stopped making it, I have no idea.

This box also has the remains of the later 'composite group and division and government explosives label.'

Chris Henschke

[TonyE]

CAC switched from Mark VI to Mark VII in February 1918.

Regards

TonyE

[Chris Henschke]

Here is another example, with the lid.

[Vimyridge]

Hello fellow members, I would a favour to ask of you.

I am in the process of making a replica of a Canadian Great War ammo crate for

308 bandoliers. This will be for use in a museum display.

I am also making copies of the many labels that were glued on the crate.

Some of the labels are torn and I was wondering if any of you could fill in the blanks

(I have circled the parts I need)

1. The top label is a Cdn label, I can make out most of it except the lower left hand portion

I cannot make out the letter follows the "D" is it a "C"?. I'm almost certain it is a C for "D"ominion of "C"anada

2. Second photo if of the side labels, I am unsure of what letters were in the green rectangle..

there are two photos here...looks like a "D U S...N T"?

and what dose the green rectangle indicate? Explosive?

3. Third photo is the from the bottom portion on each end. Not sure what the green "NT" is

Thanks in advance gentleman

Roger Roy