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Remembered Today:

"Manchester Pals"


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chris,kingo is doing the 18th,thats why hes been quiet lately,theres a lot of info of individual soldiers from the 18th in the MEN for 1916,i sent him copies of all the pages i had,that should keep him quiet for a while,bernard

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Chris

Ah, but that's just a toff's dairy.

If ever I get this daft idea that I have the skill to write a book, then it will be very heavy on the "real blokes". Although, at least in the early stages, many 6/Mancs were quite toff-ish.

The Rock God of the modern battalion history is my mate, Bernard Lewis. And I'm happy to take the opportunity to give yet another plug for "Swansea Pals" (yet another pint you owe, Bernard). I would flagrantly blag his style. B)

John

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Chris

Ah, but that's just a toff's dairy.

If ever I get this daft idea that I have the skill to write a book, then it will be very heavy on the "real blokes". Although, at least in the early stages, many 6/Mancs were quite toff-ish.

The Rock God of the modern battalion history is my mate, Bernard Lewis. And I'm happy to take the opportunity to give yet another plug for "Swansea Pals" (yet another pint you owe, Bernard). I would flagrantly blag his style. B)

John

no doubt about that,the 6th certainly had more than its fair share of skillful lads amongst the cricket,lacrosse,golf,rugby and footballing circles,many were quite well off others not so well off,but they seemed to have a common bond amongst them in their sport that cancelled out any class distinction,they seem to be more of a PALS battalion than any other manchester battalion,most of them from the early days appear to know each other from their sporting connections,bernard
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chris,kingo is doing the 18th,thats why hes been quiet lately,theres a lot of info of individual soldiers from the 18th in the MEN for 1916,i sent him copies of all the pages i had,that should keep him quiet for a while,bernard

bernard

17-18 being 1917 to 1918 for the 6th :D

toffs diary? they fought and died like everyone else, gable to gallipoli is a very good account

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they seem to be more of a PALS battalion than any other manchester battalion,

Bernard - You're possibly right. Certainly many of the Stockport members played sport together. And many of the 6th original members had "good jobs" in Manchester - bank clerks, accountants, lawyers - "professionals" if you like. They are an interesting bunch and well worthy of some study.

Chris - I was not intending to disparage the Worthington account - it's a fine read. But it was a diary. And, by my standards, he was a "toff". Hence "toffs diary" I just think the great difference with accounts written recently from those from the 20s & 30s is the much greater emphasis now on the "other ranks". Claude's brother, Thomas, was a brave chap though - won an MC with 22/Manc.

John

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bernard

17-18 being 1917 to 1918 for the 6th :D

toffs diary? they fought and died like everyone else, gable to gallipoli is a very good account

i think i need an holiday,my brain aint working proper chris,theres some interesting stuff and quite a bit of info of individuals in the 6th batt,for the whole of the war,the m/c chronicle tends to lean toward the 6th,7th and 8th batts,usually some useful info in that paper,bernard
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I feel I have to reply to this fascination with the 6th Manchesters (6 Manch) which is very interesting. Enthusiasts should also read 'I shall not find His Equal' by Niall Cherry. Hardback price £12. This is based on the life of Brigadier General Noel Lee, late of the 6th Battalion and is strongly based on his beloved 6th Battalion until his untimely death after being wounded at the batle of Krithia. And for those who complain about the lack of published histories, I suggest the book should be bought rather than borrowed. Only that way can money be raised by the Trustees of the Manchester Regiment Collection and more histories published.

And what do members mean by toffs? A pre-war analysis of forty-nine members of the Old Trafford Company of the 6th battalion whose occupations are known, shows that thirty-two worked in the centre of Manchester of whom two were employed by fustian manufacturers & dyers in York Street, three at the General Post Office, District Bank & Bankruptcy Court as clerks or messengers and twenty seven in the close knit legal & financial area of King St., South King St., St Ann’s Square, Cross St., Spring Gardens, St James’s Square, Chancery Lane, Police St, York St and Mosley St – either as solicitors or mainly in solicitors offices such as Bagshaw’s, Asherton’s, Rickard’s and Holden’s.

The majority both lived and worked within the battalion's recruiting area in Greenheys, Commercial Mills, Worsley Mill and Alport Town. All within easy walking distance of their homes. They were not toffs but certainly were Pals in the true sense.

When the six battalions of civilian soldiers from Manchester went to all out war in Gallipoli, they fought with considerable professional competence against a well disciplined enemy in a static situation which their training had not prepared them. However, despite the pressures and the problems of adjusting to a total military life, they vindicated all their pre-war critics.

Gallipoli decimated the young men of the Volunteers, the flower of Manchester’s professional and business community. Those who survived went on to continue that high reputation and spirit of service in the reformed and enlarged battalions which continued, carrying their names to the battlefields of France and Flanders.

Long may they be remembered.

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And for those who complain about the lack of published histories, I suggest the book should be bought rather than borrowed. Only that way can money be raised by the Trustees of the Manchester Regiment Collection and more histories published.

And what do members mean by toffs?

Robert

You musnt interpret my comments as "having a dig" - in the same way that I don't interpret your comments as "having a dig" (although I presume they were directed at me).

However, just to respond to the issues (as both are important , IMO)....

I own both the Lee and Worthington books, as well as well as the published histories of the 12th & 21st battalions. I would also urge others to purchase them as they are fine reads. As you say, it will raise money for the other service battalion histories to be published in due course (in the meantime, folk may visit the archives at Ashton to read them).

With regard to "toffs", I used this word to describe Col Claude Worthington (and no-one else). As you know, his father was an architect and the family came from Alderley Edge (then, as now, a very "posh" bit of North Cheshire). He was educated privately, at the nearby Ryleys Preparatory School and then attended Sedbergh public school as, I imagine, a boarder, later attending Manchester University. His leisure interests, including beagling, were typical of the upper middle class of the time. So, yes, in my eyes, Claude was a toff. And, I suspect, many of his men would have thought the same. Does that detract from him being an honourable man and a good commander? Of course, it doesnt.

John

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Hello John H. and all:

A June 1915 group photo of Royal Military College cadets I am researching (please see other threads) contains Ivor Ballantyne Evans. I found a London Gazette issue dated 13 July 1915, which states that he was being posted to the Manchester Regt., but doesn't state which battalion. Would anyone possibly have any information regarding Evans? He is not on the CWGC site, so he apparently didn't die during the war. Below is a scan of Evans cropped from the group photo.

Thanks,

Chris

post-1571-1152926080.jpg

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I feel I have to reply to this fascination with the 6th Manchesters (6 Manch) which is very interesting. Enthusiasts should also read 'I shall not find His Equal' by Niall Cherry. Hardback price £12. This is based on the life of Brigadier General Noel Lee, late of the 6th Battalion and is strongly based on his beloved 6th Battalion until his untimely death after being wounded at the batle of Krithia. And for those who complain about the lack of published histories, I suggest the book should be bought rather than borrowed. Only that way can money be raised by the Trustees of the Manchester Regiment Collection and more histories published.

And what do members mean by toffs? A pre-war analysis of forty-nine members of the Old Trafford Company of the 6th battalion whose occupations are known, shows that thirty-two worked in the centre of Manchester of whom two were employed by fustian manufacturers & dyers in York Street, three at the General Post Office, District Bank & Bankruptcy Court as clerks or messengers and twenty seven in the close knit legal & financial area of King St., South King St., St Ann’s Square, Cross St., Spring Gardens, St James’s Square, Chancery Lane, Police St, York St and Mosley St – either as solicitors or mainly in solicitors offices such as Bagshaw’s, Asherton’s, Rickard’s and Holden’s.

The majority both lived and worked within the battalion's recruiting area in Greenheys, Commercial Mills, Worsley Mill and Alport Town. All within easy walking distance of their homes. They were not toffs but certainly were Pals in the true sense.

When the six battalions of civilian soldiers from Manchester went to all out war in Gallipoli, they fought with considerable professional competence against a well disciplined enemy in a static situation which their training had not prepared them. However, despite the pressures and the problems of adjusting to a total military life, they vindicated all their pre-war critics.

Gallipoli decimated the young men of the Volunteers, the flower of Manchester’s professional and business community. Those who survived went on to continue that high reputation and spirit of service in the reformed and enlarged battalions which continued, carrying their names to the battlefields of France and Flanders.

Long may they be remembered.

not to mention those who worked at mather and platts and brigadier lees family firm of tootill broadhurst and lee,and there was a big influx of intellectual talent from manchester grammar school,bernard
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Hello John H. and all:

A June 1915 group photo of Royal Military College cadets I am researching (please see other threads) contains Ivor Ballantyne Evans. I found a London Gazette issue dated 13 July 1915, which states that he was being posted to the Manchester Regt., but doesn't state which battalion. Would anyone possibly have any information regarding Evans? He is not on the CWGC site, so he apparently didn't die during the war. Below is a scan of Evans cropped from the group photo.

Thanks,

Chris

Ivor Ballantyne Evans, manchester regiment 2/Lt 14-7-1915, lieut 2-7-1916 tfrd Indian Army 17-10-1917

regards

chris

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Chris:

Thanks for the info reEvans. I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

Chris

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  • 2 years later...

Hello there,

I wonder if you could look up someone for me:

Private LOUIS FARRIN

21850

23rd Manchester Regiment

I understand he was also awarded the Meritorious Service Medal in the "Peace Gazette", would anyone be able to shed some light on what this may mean? Did he do something brave, or was he just an all round good bloke?!

Many thanks,

Gareth Lewis

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  • 4 weeks later...

Would it be possible for anyone to tell me anyting about this fellow, and attach a picture, if possible. Dould you also help me decipher the rest of the information, I would appreciate it very much.

He may be my great grandfather. I have a picture of my ggf? in uniform but his cap band covers the cap badge, there are some similarities to Manch but also differences. However, he does have Second Lieutenant stripes on his arm.

Thank you for any assistance

William Hamilton

2 Batallion, 6th Manch Reg, Corporal, Reg 250508

6th Manch Reg, 2nd Lieut

VictoryBritish Medals: Off Roll 131, Pge 47E

Commissioned: June 6, 1918

I don"t know what the rest means and there is a faint 1966 at the top which I am not sure about, maybe when records were recorded or scanned?

Any suggestons on where to go from here would also be appreciated.

J

post-30552-1220088678.jpg

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Well, we're looking a chap who was conscripted into the 2/6th Battalion, Manchester Regiment some time after the beginning of 1917 (his six-digit service number confirms that rough date).

And, as you say, he was then commissioned. It can't be said whether he served with the 1/6th or 2/6th. As an officer his service file will be available at the National Archives (not online).

The codes on the left hand side refer to pages in the medal roll (also at Kew) but are not overly useful as you already his battalion at the time.

There is what may be a date in the bottom left hand corner. If it is a date , then it may be when he applied for his medals (officers had to apply, other ranks received their automatically).

The information that may confirm whether or not he is a relative will be in the service file.

John

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his service number (ie 250508) does not indicate he was conscripted,

the medal card shows only that number which indicates he didn't go overseas until after 1916

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And, as you say, he was then commissioned. It can't be said whether he served with the 1/6th or 2/6th.

Looks like it was possibly neither.

I've now had chance to look at the war diaries. The 2/6th had been virtually wound up by then and only a small cadre of men remained. The diary of the 1/6th includes a monthly list of officers and, as far as I can see, he's not mentioned. It's not unusual for a man to be commissioned into one unit but immediately be attached for service to another.

Harribobs is, of course, right about the numbering. The wider explanation (see http://www.1914-1918.net/recruitment.htm for more detail) is that when the Military Service Act was introduced on 27 January 1916, all men (between 18 - 41) were deemed to have enlisted (i.e. conscripted), even if they voluntarily went to the recruiting office well before they got their summons. The 2/6th had been formed in 1914 and, for much of 1915, it provided the trained replacements for the 1/6th's casualties. It didnt go overseas in its own right until the spring of 1917. As such, very many of its members had joined after conscription was introduced, although there are bound to have been some men who joined prior to this. My apologies for any confusion.

The answers to both issues, as before, will be in his file.

Good luck with your research.

John

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