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manchesters


manchester regiment

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i cant find these two men on the CWGC,ive tried many permentations of their names,but nothing comes up.

pte 2176 john gibbon and pte 2212 peter goulden,both listed in the casualty list and SDGW with these names and numbers,both were killed on 4th june,1915,TIA bernard

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Bernard

I agree - they appear to be missing.

You'll need the overseas deaths certificates. The odd thing (and possible explanation) is that, to my eyes, they appear to have same reference in the GRO overseas deaths register.

Gibbons reference is definately I 18 115.

Goulden's definately starts I 18 11*. I read the final character as a "5" but it isnt clear - hopefully Terry will see this and offer a second opinion from his copy.

BTW, are these men 1/7th Battalion? If so, then the roll of honour in the 42nd Division history seems to reocrd their names as Gibbons and Goulding. But I agree that, based on the GRO listing, these spellings are not correct.

If you wish, once you've got the certificates, Terry will be able to submit the names to CWGC on your behalf. Commemoration will be a formality in such circumstances.

John

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These two are not in the lists.

I agree that both have the same ref number I.18.15. Probably both on same page as they are same regiment and initial letter.

Certain candidates if you can get the DCs.

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Bernard

Will you get the DCs?

hiya terry,yes we will get the DC,but we may need your help again,i dont think any of our members on the manchesters forum know how to go about it,bernard
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Terry

On the subject of 1/7th men, could you please have a nosy at the Commission's record for a Harold Mossman Granger, KIA on 26/5/15.

It records his rank as 2nd Lt but I can't find anything that indicates he was higher than a private. MIC & SDGW both have private (service no. 2397) and the press description of his death (given to me by Bernard) indicates he was a sniper.

It is, perhaps, possible that he was going to be discharged to a commission as he is listed in the 42nd Division Roll of Honour under officers and other ranks (although I would have thought that the various commissions in the field came about after the Brigade's attack on 4 June).

Unfortunately, the War Diary for May - August is missing from Kew (it must have been there when Ray Westlake wrote his Gallipoli book. I hope the sticky fingered toerag who has stolen it is enjoying his/her prize). Perhaps there was confusion with a Lt T E Granger (brother) who was wounded and taken prisoner on 4 June. As far as I know he survived.

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London Gazette 7th August 1915 including a bonus brother...

7th Battalion, The Manchester Regiment, the ndermentioned Privates to be Second Lieutenants.

Dated 11th March, 1915 : —

Henry Ellis Wild.

John William Sutherland.

Thomas Edward Granger.

Harold Mossman Granger.

Thomas Herbert Smith.

Marshall Bateman.

John Clarke Morten.

Frank Lomas.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

The Gazetting after his death may well have been significant.

Steve.

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Well. Bu99er me.

Thanks Steve. Always good to have a mystery solved.

John Clarke Morten is the JC Morton whose letters are featured in "I remain your son, Jack" and is another Stockport chap.

Jack wrote home on 2 June "I expect you will have heard about Harold Granger, poor chap, he was shot in the head& lingered for 24 hours. He didnt suffer much as he was unconscious the whole time. If he had lived he would have been blind for lif, so he is bteer where he is. You might tend my sumpathy to Mrs G, I'm exceedingly sorry for her & I know how cut up she will be."

Jack and Harold were good mates and both had performed at the Battalion Xmas concert in Khartoum.

Brother Edgar also wrote home "We made an advance on May 28th in the night and got to within 200 yards, then started to dig ourselves in. They poured a terrible fire on us and we lost heavily. Poor harold was lying down shooting on my right whislt I was digging. He turned round to speak to me and was hit in th head. I saw at once that the wound was fatal but managed to get his field dressing on. He was cosncious for about three minutes and spoke to me. I aske dhim if he was in pain and he said he could feel nothing then he went unconscious and remained like that to the end. I was with him the whole time and he passed away quite peacefully at 7pm, May 29th. "

John

(Bernard: apologies for thread hijack)

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Well. Bu99er me.

Thanks Steve. Always good to have a mystery solved.

John Clarke Morten is the JC Morton whose letters are featured in "I remain your son, Jack" and is another Stockport chap.

Jack wrote home on 2 June "I expect you will have heard about Harold Granger, poor chap, he was shot in the head& lingered for 24 hours. He didnt suffer much as he was unconscious the whole time. If he had lived he would have been blind for lif, so he is bteer where he is. You might tend my sumpathy to Mrs G, I'm exceedingly sorry for her & I know how cut up she will be."

Jack and Harold were good mates and both had performed at the Battalion Xmas concert in Khartoum.

Brother Edgar also wrote home "We made an advance on May 28th in the night and got to within 200 yards, then started to dig ourselves in. They poured a terrible fire on us and we lost heavily. Poor harold was lying down shooting on my right whislt I was digging. He turned round to speak to me and was hit in th head. I saw at once that the wound was fatal but managed to get his field dressing on. He was cosncious for about three minutes and spoke to me. I aske dhim if he was in pain and he said he could feel nothing then he went unconscious and remained like that to the end. I was with him the whole time and he passed away quite peacefully at 7pm, May 29th. "

John

(Bernard: apologies for thread hijack)

no apologise necessary john,ime glad you highlighted this lad,i found a ref to john mortens commission,he was promoted to L/cpl whilst on gallipoli,it was only when it appeared in the LG,that the army realised that john morton had already been given a commission,but it had been mislaid,harold was also granted a comm at the same time,ime pretty certain that harolds comm had also been mislaid,harold and john were actually officers at the time,but they didnt know it,sadly,harold was killed before news reached him,your 100% safe in listing him on your memorial as a 2/Lt,bernard
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Thanks Bernard.

I think you are right about that they didnt know about the commissions (although one of Morten's letters indicates he knew he was in for one).

There's zilch in any of the letters or anything else I've seen to indicate that either of the Granger brothers, Morten or Frank Lomas were acting as anything other than ORs in June. Morten is still calling himself L/Cpl in August.

If you ever come across any actual war diary extracts for May/June, I'd really appreciate a copy.

John

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Thanks Bernard.

I think you are right about that they didnt know about the commissions (although one of Morten's letters indicates he knew he was in for one).

There's zilch in any of the letters or anything else I've seen to indicate that either of the Granger brothers, Morten or Frank Lomas were acting as anything other than ORs in June. Morten is still calling himself L/Cpl in August.

If you ever come across any actual war diary extracts for May/June, I'd really appreciate a copy.

John

albeit jack morton was amused at seeing he was promoted from 2/Lt to L/cpl after the war,if i spot anything about them,i will pass it on to you john,its amusing to think that jack morton was taking orders from NCOs and 2/Lts,and all the time,he was an officer himself,but didnt know it :lol::lol: bernard
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heres another one from the 7th batt,1455 pte john gregory,DOW 14-10-15.

bernard

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Bernard

Yep, I agree. He looks to be missing as well.

You're going to need deep pockets at this rate for death certifciates. GRO reference for him is I 18 115.

John

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I have been talking to Bernard about these apparently missing men and we have it in hand to get them sorted.

It is starting to look as though a whole section of men with names starting with 'G' were left off the army's list sent to CWGC.

A sheet of paper dropped on the floor, no doubt. :o

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Terry

I've answered my own question with a quick nosy at SDGW. All the Gs for the 1/6th are commem., so it look like just the 1/7th.

If you & Bernard havnt already picked him up, I can't find 2302, Pte Frank Gamble, KIA 4/6/15 either.

John

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Bernard

Yep, I agree. He looks to be missing as well.

You're going to need deep pockets at this rate for death certifciates. GRO reference for him is I 18 115.

John

two of our lady members have ordered and paid for them john,and john gregorys DC is covered, if he turns out to be missing,bernard
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London Gazette 7th August 1915 including a bonus brother...

7th Battalion, The Manchester Regiment, the ndermentioned Privates to be Second Lieutenants.

Dated 11th March, 1915 : —

Henry Ellis Wild.

John William Sutherland.

Thomas Edward Granger.

Harold Mossman Granger.

Thomas Herbert Smith.

Marshall Bateman.

John Clarke Morten.

Frank Lomas.

Perhaps interestingly, the only War Diary mention is of Jack Morten's promotion (2 September). Of course by then, Lomas and one Granger was dead and the other still miisng at that date.

John

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