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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

853 1 A M W CLARKE R.A.F / RFC


Coldstreamer

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Currently a 14 trio up to to £681 on an auction site

anything special about this group ? Or is it just as its an early RFC chap and the going price ?

Cheers

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so do I , but are they that rare ?

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W Clarke, 853, joined the RFC on 30 August 1913 and served in France as a Airman Class 2 with No 4 Sqn from 12 August 1914. He was promoted to AMI on 18 January and retained that rank with the RAF. On 3 June 1919 AMI W Clarke was mentioned in despatches for his wartime services.

Gareth

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The MID would add some value but seems alot still

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3 digit service number medals command a premium to any unit, even RAMC and ASC.

Only 5 squadrons RFC qualified for the 1914 Star, of those only 4 went out initially so yes, they are rare.

Any decoration, even a MID, considerably enhances an RFC group.

I have a broken RFC 1914 Star trio that I bought for about twice the then value of a 1914 Star with clasp trio to the Coldstream Guards.

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Thanks - I know they command a premium. For the coldstream guards having a low number (from a researching the man perspective and his service) makes no diffferance so I wouldnt pay a premium.

like you say - quite rare then

MIDs to the infantry dont seem to add much to the monetary value - obviously does to the RFC

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That's the difference between the RFC/RAF and the infantry and has been for at least the last 25+ years that I've been interested in medals. With over 300,000 WWI other ranks they should be on a par with the RE, ASC and other corps, but they attract a devoted following who are prepared to pay more for their medals.

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made me smile - you can see that its a 1914 star and I wouldnt have pointed that out

and they are getting common ...........yawn :)

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That is a gorgeous group! LSGC and a bar to the 1914 Star, which if genuine is even rarer for other ranks.

I've seen auction catalogues with more than 2 VCs, one with 2 and the campaign medals of a third. I didn't realise that made them common, just to have them on sale at the same time.

Not sure what your definition of rare is; I'd say that 1914 Stars are rare in the first place and then rare for any particular unit -- even to the artillery & other corps. About 0.5% of the RFC/ RAF qualified for the 1914 Star and only about 5% got a 14/15 Star trio.

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£1,131.09 for a 1914 Star, clasp trio, Silver Jubilee & LSGC Medals, plus a daughters WW" BWM. How many other units would command that price for that group?

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There has been some considerable research into the first 1000 members of the RFC,& a book was published with varying length of biography of those men{circa 1980s I believe}it would be the interest in the First 1000 that has "made" this group

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I have the Army LSGC (GeoV) and Army MSM (Geo VI, Ind Imp) to 5893/980 S Mjr A Watkins Grenadier Guards/RFC.

He joined the Grenadier Guards on 20th July 1896 and served with the Mounted Infantry in South Africa between 1900 and 1902, earning himself a QSA with 3 bars and a KSA. In August 1908, he service went to West Africa as a Sgt in the West Africa Regiment returning to the UK in September 1909.

His service papers show him as receiving the Royal Victorian Medal (Bronze) on 7.6.1910 for, I believe, service at the funeral of Edward Vii.

On the 2 September 1913, he transferred to the RFC as a S Mjr; he received his LSGC under AO333/1913. The medal is named to him as "Drill Instructor Grenadier Guards". I assume he instructed the new RFC recruits in only the way a Guards NCO can!

He went to France on 3.3 1915 and qualified for the 1914-15 trio; his mic states " Ret'd unclaimed NW/5/37299".

Watkin then went with 47 Squadron to South Russia and received the Russian Medal of Zeal on the ribbon of St Stanislas.

The MSM was awarded to him under AO 18/1948.

Arthur Watkin died in Brighton General Hospital on 29 November 1956. His occupation as given on his death certificate was "1st Class Warrant Officer Grenadier Guards".

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mark

you just need to find the rest now

Ive seen it mentioned before that Guards SNCO went into the RFC to instruct etc

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Which would you buy?

A 14 Star Trio to a AM RFC for £500 - 600

OR

A 15 Star Trio to a Sergeant Major Class 1 RFC for - £100 - 150

I know which I would rather own for many reasons, two of those being value for money and research potential. I really do think that some collectors simply dont know what they are doing. A classic example of this is people who pay more money because the pair is named to the RFC.

Yes, so that man may of been wounded and returned to the UK, but he may also of been sick or sent back to be posted to a Squadron in the UK. The man who has RAF on his pair has had more service overseas.

WW1 RAF items are by far a long way rarer than Royal Flying Corps. The RAF was only around for months in wartime from April to November.

Steve.

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The latter as its a bargain !

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The latter as its a bargain !

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I`ll leave those RFC experts to carry on collecting those 14 Star trios to the lower ranks, I`ll stick with collecting complete 15 Star Trios to the most senior NCO of the squadron for one sixth of the price.

Glad you can see where I`m coming from Coldstreamer. It is madness!

Steve.

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HB is thinking of Ian McInnes, and Jack V. Webb 'Contemptible Little Flying Corps'

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  • 2 months later...
For the coldstream guards having a low number makes no diffferance so I wouldnt pay a premium.

There are no Coldstream WWI equivalents to these men; you’d need to find medals from the 1650s or 60s to be in the same category. These low number RFC or RNAS men were the founder members of the service and so have a cachet.

Which would you buy?

I didn’t realise that someone had decreed that it is only permittable to collect one or the other; personally I’d like both. Then again I’m not a narrow collector and I would welcome the research potential of a transferred Guards SM, but I would imagine that purists would prefer to collect medals to men of the RAF and it’s predecessors only.

The man who has RAF on his pair has had more service overseas.

Perhaps you are unaware of the difference that rarity often makes to values. As by far the majority of medals to members of the RFC and RNAS are named to the RAF, those named to the former services are rarer. On what basis did they have more time overseas? It only means that they were overseas from 1 April 1918, so in theory a man could go out in August 1914 and return in March 1918 and thus have RFC or RNAS on the medals. Additionally men pioneering night flying in Britain, or defending against incoming airships or bombers; or being part of the anti submarine network might not have been overseas, but were contributing to the war effort.

Isn’t it wonderful that we have different collecting interests -- it would be very boring otherwise!

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There are no Coldstream WWI equivalents to these men; you’d need to find medals from the 1650s or 60s to be in the same category. These low number RFC or RNAS men were the founder members of the service and so have a cachet.

Guards Machine Gun Regiment was new - some coldstream men transferred into there

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Guards Machine Gun Regiment was new - some coldstream men transferred into there

And the latest Spink Auction catalogue contains a number of fantastic groups to the Guards Machine Gun Regiment. It will be interesting to see what prices these fetch.

Regards

Steve

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Guards Machine Gun Regiment was new - some coldstream men transferred into there

Oh well, if you're going to change units...

The standard MGC tends to command a premium as do other units started up in WWI such as the Tank Corps.

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it was the best I could come up with !!

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