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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

searching for info on grandfather


crowechris

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1 hour ago, Josieglenda1940 said:

I haven't contacted Christine yet I'm not sure how to do this my daughter Sarah is abroad on holiday will be back on Tuesday so she can show me how to do it

You have given me so much information I can't believe at last after 70plus years I have his photo and know where he is buried my Mother destroyed all his photos

 

Josie

 

As you are struggling with the technology, I have sent a message to Chris Crowe , via Ancestry.

 

I think she should get it as she has been there recently, but I cannot guarantee that she will reply.

 

I have given a link to this thread (which she in fact started) and hopefully she will add to the thread and also contact you

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14 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Josie

 

As you are struggling with the technology, I have sent a message to Chris Crowe , via Ancestry.

 

I think she should get it as she has been there recently, but I cannot guarantee that she will reply.

 

I have given a link to this thread (which she in fact started) and hopefully she will add to the thread and also contact you

Omg you are so kind I really hope she makes contact I used to live at Wescliffe on sea as a child Glen Wood Ave rings a bell  the address in Rochford I now remember my surname now is Walsh after my marriage in 1962 I also became a trained nurse and midwife but obviously retired now xx

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I suspect the OP has long disappeared. However, CSM J W J  Snell was CSM of K Special Company RE. He is mentioned in the unit war diary as as follows:

 

13.3.17 - attended a Livens Projector course.

 

8.6.17 - mentioned as being awarded "the Italian Bronze Medal for Valour." This was a reciprocal  award, that is the allies allotted a particular number of awards to each other, the distribution being left to the individual nations. The unit war diary does not give a clue about the circumstances which lead to the recommendation. 

 

TR

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He seems to have been promoted to CSM remarkably quickly, even when allowing for the no-nonsense ‘bracing up’ that he must have brought with him from the Grenadier Guards to the pragmatic, but muddy boots of the RE.  That swift advancement suggests at least that he actively demonstrated a degree of courage, as well as competence, which might explain his selection for the award of the Italian decoration.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He seems to have been promoted to CSM remarkably quickly, even when allowing for the no-nonsense ‘bracing up’ that he must have brought with him from the Grenadier Guards to the pragmatic, but muddy boots of the RE.  That swift advancement suggests at least that he actively demonstrated a degree of courage, as well as competence, which might explain his selection for the award of the Italian decoration.

82D1DDC1-87D1-4E81-AFB8-84ED3BB7F8CF.png.96730f7cae34f80110c7c1ee654d3332.pngF69B834A-8932-4B0D-BF4D-E6C47413C1AF.png.d6e36b62f5120f916372fd272e9d083a.png

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That account rather confirms my thoughts Christine, thank you for posting it.  It’s a shame that the sides of the article are clipped. I hope that you can now be in contact with parts of your family that you did not know existed.  I’m sure that it’s what John Snell would have wished.  What an incredible story.  I hope that one of the police forces with which he served might have a photo of him in their records.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Don’t know if I’ve already posted this as it’s hard to manoeuvre around this site on an iPhone but thanks to everyone who helped me with this over the years. I have been in contact with Sarah and her Mum. Ironically I have a daughter named Sarah Walsh as well. If anyone could get a photo from the police gazette of our great grandfather William Jesse Snell it would be amazing. These clippings I got from Derek Wilcox and he had to drive to some obscure museum somewhere to get copies. Not sure if he’s still around but he was very helpful to me. 

Edited by crowechris
Typo
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14 hours ago, crowechris said:

Don’t know if I’ve already posted this as it’s hard to manoeuvre around this site on an iPhone but thanks to everyone who helped me with this over the years. I have been in contact with Sarah and her Mum. Ironically I have a daughter named Sarah Walsh as well. If anyone could get a photo from the police gazette of our great grandfather William Jesse Snell it would be amazing. These clippings I got from Derek Wilcox and he had to drive to some obscure museum somewhere to get copies. Not sure if he’s still around but he was very helpful to me. 


Christine, I’m not sure if you had forgotten about post #13 in this thread, but you were advised there that John Snell’s City of London Police personnel file still exists and is held in a London Archive.  Perhaps you or Sarah Walsh could apply for a copy.  Apparently it includes a photograph. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 It’s a shame that the sides of the article are clipped

Presumably from the Police Gazette or some such although no dates given. A search on FindmyPast Newspapers didn't help.

 

 

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2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Presumably from the Police Gazette or some such although no dates given. A search on FindmyPast Newspapers didn't help.

 

 


Yes, as the next article is also about an ex-policeman it does seem likely that it’s a cutting from a Police Gazette, I hadn’t spotted that previously. Perhaps it was a specific City of London police periodical, although I don’t know if such a thing existed.

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This thread is quire cluttered now, and his life was so interesting that I have put together a timeline. I am sure that lots could be added !

 

John William Josiah Snell

snell-1.jpg

 

1890 Jul 7. Born in Barnet , London son of William Jesse & Elizabeh Jane Snell

 

1891 census at 4 Eldon Villas, Brownlow Road, Finchley. His father is a Constable in Met Police

 

1901 census at 4 Upper West Bourne Terrace, Paddington. His father is a Sgt in Met Police

 

1909 Enlisted in Grenadier Guards

 

1910 May 20. Gets Royal Victorian Medal (bronze) for the funeral of King Edward V11

 

1911 census with 1st Battalion Grenadier Gds in London. A Private.

 

1911 Gets the Coronation medal of George V. He was in Kings Company who seem to have stood by the grave

 

1912 Transferred to the Reserves

 

He then joined the London Police.as D216.

 

1913 Jan/March MArriage of John W J Snell to Lottie E Darkins, Wandsworth registration district, with children born 1913 (Ethel) and 7/3/1920  (Stella Olive) . Lottie Darkins did not die until 1958

 

1914 Aug he was recalled to the colours . 14319 for the Grenadier Guards

 

1914 Oct 6. Lands in France with Grenadier Guards

 

1915 Jul. Transferred as 143028 for the Royal Engineers. His RE Service number looks to be issued.

 

1916 Mar/Apr. The RE were forming their Special Gas Companies at this time in France and there were a number of transfers from infantry regiments to the RE. A couple of near numbers with surviving service records show these men went to Special Companies (ie Gas). It would seem probable that Snell followed a similar path;

 

1916 Nov 13. His wounding was reported in the Casualty List of 13/11/16 suggesting wounding some 4 weeks earlier. He was Company Sgt Major RE at the time

 

1917 Mar 13. CSM J W J  Snell was CSM of K Special Company RE. He is mentioned in the unit war diary - attended a Livens Projector course. The Livens Projector was a simple mortar-like weapon that could throw large drums filled with flammable or toxic chemicals. In the First World War, the Livens Projector became the standard means of delivering gas attacks by the British Army

snell-4.jpg

1917 Jun 6. - The unit War Diary mentioned him as being awarded "the Italian Bronze Medal for Valour." This was a reciprocal  award, that is the allies allotted a particular number of awards to each other, the distribution being left to the individual nations. The unit war diary does not give a clue about the circumstances which lead to the recommendation.  The Italian medal for Valour was gazetted 1917 May 26

 

1919 Feb he was demobilised with the rank of Regimental Sergeant Major.

snell-5.jpg

 

He then re-joined the London Police and earned the rank of Detective Sergeant.

 

1920 Mar 7. Daughter Stella Olive born to his wife Lottie

 

1922 Apr 13. he was declared bankrupt and he was forced to resign from the Police Force.

snell-9.jpg

 

1922 Voters list with his wife Lottie at 202 Amhurst Rd, Hackney. Lottie disappeared from his life between 1922 and 1925

 

1922 Oct in LG. He appear to had set up a Private Detective business on leaving the police. When that folded, he then became a Butler until he was gaoled for theft.

snell-7.jpg

 

1923 Mar 8 Release from Bankruptcy

snell-8.jpg

 

1924, Sentenced to 6 months prison for stealing  from  his employer while a butler

snell-6.jpg

 

1925 Voters List. Lodging at 12 Redan St, Hamersmith. No wife present

 

1927 Charles Ernest Grenadier Snell b1927 and Frank Snell (b 1930 , d 1932) were both born to Louisa Roberts. Charles was made a ward of court and Frank who died as a baby. Charles appears to have been abandoned by his mother and father. Louisa Roberts and John Snell do not appear to have married.

 

1930 Son Charles enters Norwood orphanage

 

1937 Sentenced to 6 months in prison for stealing from cars. He was lodging at Cedar Rd. Bedford at the time

snell-3.jpg

 

1939 Register. His wife Lottie is in Register as Charlotte, widow, with daughter Ethel. She is the housekeeper at a house in Palace Rd. Wandworth

 

1940 Child Josie G Snell born, of Edith Carlisle

a bootmaker in 585 London Road,Southend on Sea,

 

1949 Josie Snell had been living with her father until she was 9. He disappeared one day and her mother reclaimed her. he left said will see you tomorrow I never saw him again

 

1952 Jan Emigrates to Australia on RMS Oronsay , giving his address as 14 East St, Rochford. He appears to be travelling alone.

 

1967 Apr 4. Died Fran, Victoria, Australia. He clearly had friends/family in Australia who put up his tombstone, and donated his medals to Grenadier Guards Museum

snell-2.jpg

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A sad story, but uplifted by the fact that some of his offspring are coming together after being separated so many years.  The course of his life suggests some degree of alcoholism and like so many veterans of WW1 he struggled to settle into civilian life.  As RSM he would have had great status and I imagine that returning to mundane and straitened domestic circumstances was irksome to him and what he (perhaps) perceived to be his ‘due’ station in life.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 3 years later...

As a strange postscript to this story, I discovered about five years ago that John William Josiah Snell was my great-grandfather. He was the father of my maternal grandmother. I made the discovery via an Ancestry DNA test and a great deal of detective work, which unfortunately did not reveal how JWJS and my great-grandmother met or how long the relationship lasted. My grandmother's birth certificate shows another man as her father, however DNA proves that this man was not a blood relation at all, and he disappeared from my grandmother's life when she was only a few years old.
My grandmother clearly inherited her height and perhaps her colouring from her Grenadier Guard father - she was 5'10" and fairish, while her mother and the man she thought was her father were both short and had darker colouring. 
I contacted Christine via Ancestry.co.uk after finding her family tree there, and very much enjoyed our correspondence. I've also tried contacting Josie but haven't heard back. If Sarah, Josie's daughter, reads this, I would love to hear from her.
I just wanted to mention that I made enquiries with the London Metropolitan Archives about JWJS's City of London Police personnel file but was told that it no longer exists. However, there is a note in the Warrant Book with some brief information such as his warrant number, the date he joined (8th May 1913), the number of his division (E) and the fact that he was 'allowed to resign' on 31st March 1922.
The very helpful person at the London Metropolitan Archives suggested searching the City of London Corporation Police Committee's minutes  (COL/CC/PLC/O1/01/052-57) covering the period 1913 to 1922 when JWJS was a police officer, and also the Committee papers dating from May 1913 to March 1922 (COL/CC/PLC/02/0710-0793). He said it would be advisable to search the committee minutes prior to requesting to see the accompanying committee papers as there are a large number of folders of these papers, arranged by month and year. I haven't done this yet but will do so when I have the time.
I would love to know what JWJS did to merit the Italian Bronze Medal for Valour - I read the post which said that there is no information about this in the War Diaries but I wondered if there might be another way of finding out.

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  • Admin

Welcome to the forum. @Josieglenda1940 hasn’t visited the forum since 2020. My tag may alert them to your post. 

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7 minutes ago, Elima said:

He was the father of my maternal grandmother.

To fit her birth into his timeline, when and where was your grandmother born ?

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3 minutes ago, Elima said:

born in Hammersmith, London in January 1921. 

Thanks. He was a busy man in Mar/Apr  1920 so I can see why it is difficult to see how he met you g-grandmother

The only new thing I can add is the 1921 census from FmP which shows him living with his wife

snell.jpg.88eef22b3b9cc0b6b1b14eefa731a03b.jpg

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Yes, my grandmother would have been conceived a month or two after JWJS's second daughter (Stella) was born. I am sure my great-grandmother and my grandmother did not live with JWJS at any time. 

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I've just spotted that in 1925, according to the electoral roll, JWJ was living (without his wife and daughters) in Redan Street, Hammersmith, very close to where my great-grandmother lived.  

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Recent additions have reopened this fascinating story that is so evocative of the human condition, the fickle fates of fortune and perhaps the after effects of war.  In re-reading it I noticed that as a 6’ 2” Guardsman of the King’s Company Grenadier Guards, JWJ stood vigil over King Edward VII whilst his body was lying in State, for which he subsequently received the Royal Victorian Medal, a gift of the Sovereign.  As we’ve just seen the late Queen Elizabeth pass through a similar ceremony there’s a clear picture in mind of what it entails.  I can’t recall offhand which was the first laying in state to be seen by the public, but if it was Edward VII then it’s occurred to me that perhaps there is an official press photo of JWJ standing beside the catafalque.

Afternote:  I found a photo from the Royal Collection itself, although of course we cannot know which of the four guards he is.  This seems to be in Buckingham Palace, as the vigil in Westminster Hall is carried out only by officers.  Perhaps he was a member of the subsequent bearer party.  There will be a record of his involvement somewhere I imagine, as the records of the Royal Household are strictly kept and the Royal Victorian Order (and its sub categories) is administered from the Palace by them.  https://www.rct.uk/collection/2109808/king-edward-vii-lying-in-state-buckingham-palace

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IMG_1711.jpeg

IMG_1712.jpeg

IMG_1713.jpeg

 

IMG_1718.jpeg

IMG_1719.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Many thanks to Frogsmile for those fascinating photos.
I've just found an account of JWJ Snell's 1924 trial and sentencing from an Australian newspaper, the Adelaide Chronicle, 1 November 1924. It is headed "Fine Career Wrecked. Ex-Detective With Six War Medals".
It is well worth reading as it is much more informative than the British accounts of the trial.
You can view it for free online via the Australian newspaper archive database https://trove.nla.gov.au , using the search terms "John William Josiah Snell".
Everything in this account supports the idea that JWJ Snell was psychologically damaged by his war experience. 
"Up to the time of the war, the chief constable went on, the prisoner was an excellent fellow, but since then he had given a good deal of trouble."

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