Ricasso Markings

[findabetterole]

Hello Chums,

As most collectors do, I browse the various auction sites for items that I would like to include in my collection, or for items that may be good enough to replace (as an upgrade) certain items from my collection that I feel... could be better! I'll admit to purchasing several items from the bain of our lives... EBAY.

Seller descriptions range from 'Can someone tell me what this is?' to 'I know what I've got so - the buyer- will pay through the nose for it'.

One particular 'teeth grind' of mine, is in the way certain items are described as 'Exremely Rare' or just 'Rare', yet when looking at the item, we immediately see that it is as common as doggy doodoo's. Two of those items so listed over the past few months have been the US manufactured WW.1 bayonets, the Pattern 1913 & Pattern 1917. These are quite popular with many collectors as they are with myself. So, please allow me in this thread to put right the past inacuracy's of many an Ebay seller.

Firstly the manufacturers.

There were two manufacturers for both Patterns... Remington and Winchester. Lets look at the standard ricasso markings for the P13... From January of 1915 to approx September 1917, both manufacturers followed the standard marking system of: Pattern designation over Date of manufacture over Manufacturers logo.

I have illustrated examples of both manufacturers below...

[findabetterole]

... now the standard right ricasso markings. These were again the same for both manufacturers, and were of a form similar to those found on the right ricasso of the Enfield Pattern 1907.

Example below..

[findabetterole]

... up till now, nothing is out of the ordinary. These examples of the Remington and Winchester P13 bayonets are in no way rare. One comes across just as many with these markings, as one does the Enfield P1907 bayonets with their relavent standard markings.

Now... the rarety items.

From approx July 1917, with both manufacturers, we start to see a spasmodic change to the right ricasso markings. The British style inspectors stamping is shown hatched out, with a stamping of the letters 'US' added below. This modification appears side by side with the normal stampings previously described and illustrated. I personaly have not come across any examples of this ammendment after October 1917. However, that does not mean that no earlier or later stamings exist. I have examples from July, August and September 1917. It is this ammendment that is the rarety.

Example below...

[findabetterole]

...After October 1917 we see no more P13 bayonets. Enter the Pattern 1917! Once again, both manufacturers supply this bayonet and have there own distinct manufacturers marking.

For the left ricasso, in both Remington and Winchester, we see the following stampings: Pattern designation over Manufacturers logo.

Examples below...

[findabetterole]

...for the right ricasso, once again, both manufacturers use the same setup, but one part of the stamping is unique to each manufacturer. That unique part is the 'Eagle Head' which is always on the top left of the ricasso stamping.

The difference is this.... the Remington 'Eagle Head' is the larger of the two and points to the left. The Winchesr example is the more stylised and smaller of the two..... this faces the opposite direction and points upwards.

Examples below...

[findabetterole]

The collector will also come across one more Remington example for the WW.1 P17 bayonet, this is where the pattern designation of 1917 has been replaced by '1918'. I have contacted Remington several years ago in reference to this ammendment. Including Remington's explanation, I have listed a further three reasons as to why this example exists. This example, if in it's original issue format, should, when offered for sale, come in the US pattern Mk.2 scabbard.

Example of bayonet and scabbard .... below...

[findabetterole]

A couple of points I must pass on that I feel are quite relevant.

First.... buying these bayonet examples or other items from EBAY.

We all love a good bargain, and there are some mighty good ones to be had from Ebay, if one can resist bidding to early and one searches the site.... not bidding on the first item at hand. If you find an item that you like, there is already a bid on it by a person with a '0' by the side of their screen name....... Please! don't bid on it. The reason is, most '0' bidders will pay ANYTHING to get that '1st' item, thus inflating the actual price far higher than it's market value.

Second.... the P13 & P17 bayonets were supplied to Breat Britain and the commonweath during WW.2. Most of us know these bayonets for their use with the Home Guard, imortalised in the television series - 'DADS ARMY'. As a reult of WW.2, both of the above bayonets, all examples, can be encountered with British style and US style scabbards. If given the chance to compare the P13 & P17 side-by-side, other than minor manufacturers perculiarities, they will differ in the ricasso stampings ONLY.

I hope that with reading this thread, you now have the confidence to go out and aquire for the right price.... that P13 or P17 that you haven't really had the knowledge on before.

I'm always open to questions on Allied WW.1 bayonets, so feel free to ask away!

Good Luck and Happy Collecting.

Seph