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posthumous MM award


manchester regiment

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i have a cpl 24957 robert conn,manchester regiment,hes listed in the MM roll that i have for the manchesters as being awarded the MM posthumously,but hes not on the CWGC,his MIC confirms his name,rank and number,and it matches his MM details in the roll,he must have died before it was gazetted on 23-7-19,posthumously seems to indicate he died in the act,or shortly after,but i cant find him,can anyone help,bernard

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posthumously seems to indicate he died in the act,or shortly after,but i cant find him,can anyone help,bernard

Bernard

I don't think that you could be awarded the MM if you were killed performing an act of bravery.

Andy

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Hmm.

I wonder whether this is the same man? Some details seem to be simiilar.

"His brother Robert CONN born 17th October, 1898, served in the army. Enlisting into the 11th Bn. Manchester Regiment, at the age of 16 years. He saw service at Gallipoli, where he had his 17th birthday. With his Battalion he returned to take part in the First Battle of the Somme on the Western Front. He survived the war. "

Do a Google search entering the two phrases "Robert Conn" and "Manchester Regiment" and you will get just the one hit, from which the above is taken.

This particular Conn family came from County Durham. They are easy to find in the 1901 census and in the BMD registrations.

Presumably, if he "survived the war" then he would not be on the CWGC site.

You may have to look for a civilian death in the period preceding the gazette entry. That would not take very long at all.

Noel

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Hmm.

I wonder whether this is the same man? Some details seem to be simiilar.

"His brother Robert CONN born 17th October, 1898, served in the army. Enlisting into the 11th Bn. Manchester Regiment, at the age of 16 years. He saw service at Gallipoli, where he had his 17th birthday. With his Battalion he returned to take part in the First Battle of the Somme on the Western Front. He survived the war. "

Do a Google search entering the two phrases "Robert Conn" and "Manchester Regiment" and you will get just the one hit, from which the above is taken.

This particular Conn family came from County Durham. They are easy to find in the 1901 census and in the BMD registrations.

Presumably, if he "survived the war" then he would not be on the CWGC site.

You may have to look for a civilian death in the period preceding the gazette entry. That would not take very long at all.

But elsewhere on the site reached by your Google search (click the "England" heading), it says:

"ROBERT [Robbie] Conn, born 17th October, 1898, and was baptized on 15th January, 1899, at St. Mary’s Church, East Rainton. He died on 8th December, 1937."

so he can't very well have a posthumous MM awarded in 1919.

"Hmm" indeed!

Adrian

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Well, Adrian, I'm not quite sure whether you're saying that I didn't go far enough, or whether you are agreeing that it's a puzzle.

I grovel humbly if it's the former.

By now feeling somewhat chastised for ineptitude, I went further. There are, as far as I can see, 163 Medal Cards answering to the surname Conn. I went through them all. There are two references to Robert Conn of the Manchester Regiment, one as a private and one as a corporal. In both cases Robert has the service number 24957. The card for the corporal refers to the MM, the card for the Private to campaign medals. Unless there is a stuff-up with the medal cards, both appear to be the same man.

I then checked the citation in the London Gazette.

Supplement, 23rd July 1919, page 9381. Under the heading of "Manchester Regiment" is the entry:

"24957 Cpl. Conn R., 11th Bn. (Durham)"

Given all the evidence that we have, it's London to a brick that the Robert Conn from the Conn family web-site must be one and the same as Corporal Robert Conn 24957.

If Robert didn't die until 1937 then either the death date is wrong or the award was NOT made posthumously.

I think that Bernard should download the two medal cards.

Noel

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Well, Adrian, I'm not quite sure whether you're saying that I didn't go far enough, or whether you are agreeing that it's a puzzle.

I grovel humbly if it's the former.

By now feeling somewhat chastised for ineptitude, I went further.

Sorry, Noel! No chastisement intended at all. I was merely agreeing that it's a puzzle his apparent date of death was after his apparently posthumous award.

My turn to grovel humbly. Apologies!

Adrian

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Adrian, that's OK. Just a little idle banter that's all!

I've just realised that, of course, there is another possible explanation.

I've just checked the death registrations, and there is the death of a Robert Conn aged 39 registered in the December quarter of 1937, corresponding to the birth of Robert Conn in 1898.

The question that comes to my mind is whether there is any independent evidence that this Robert Conn actually served in the Manchester Regiment. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't. It could be that the compiler of the family tree has simply looked at the medal cards, found one for a Robert Conn, and put two and two together to make five. That is, the statement that Robert Conn (1898-1937) served in the Manchester Regiment is an assumption rather than a fact. It's strange that the family tree makes no mention of the award of the Military Medal...

Looking at the 1901 census I see a Robert William Conn born in Co. Durham c. 1883; he could be the "second" Robert Conn...

It is very strange that Bernard has found a reference to the MM being awarded posthumously. It would seem unlikely that his medal list would be in error on a point such as this.

I notice that down at the bottom of the "AyrshireRoots.com" site where the Conn family history is set out there is a link to enable contact with the webmaster. Perhaps Bernard might like to make this contact and be put in contact with the author of the family history?

I think that it comes down to this.

1. Only one Robert Conn served overseas with the Manchester Regiment. He was awarded campaign medals and the Military Medal.

2. If the MM was awarded posthumously, Robert Conn (1898-1937) was NOT the recipient of the MM and did not serve overseas with the Manchester Regiment. It follows that Bernard's Robert Conn was not the one on AyrshireRoots.com.

3. Alternatively, if the MM was not awarded posthumously, then Bernard's MM list reference is incorrect, and, in this case Robert Conn (1898-1937) MAY have served in the Manchester Regiment.

We need some independent evidence before we can go any further.

Over to you Bernard!!

Noel

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The medal buffs may correct me on this but....A posthumous award is one which is given for an act in the course of which the recipient died. It is not an award that was announced after the death of the recipient at a later date and possibly of an unrelated cause.

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Terry and John are correct as far as I can tell. Only the VC and MiD could be awarded posthumously. An MM could be awarded to a man who at the time of the award was actually dead but not killed in the act of winning the medal.

Andy

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The medal buffs may correct me on this but....A posthumous award is one which is given for an act in the course of which the recipient died. It is not an award that was announced after the death of the recipient at a later date and possibly of an unrelated cause.

Correct. The only posthumous awards for the Great War are the Victoria Cross and a Mentioned in Despatches.

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Could the Manchester Regiment Museum help Bernard with this puzzle? The curator can be contacted by e-mail on museum.manchesters@tameside.gov.uk

Noel

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Terry and John are correct as far as I can tell. Only the VC and MiD could be awarded posthumously. An MM could be awarded to a man who at the time of the award was actually dead but not killed in the act of winning the medal.

Andy

thats absolutely true,bernard
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