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Another Uniform ID


Geoff D Taylor

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This is a pciture of my Grand Uncle Francis Taylor

As far as we know, he served with the Royal Scots Greys in WW1.

We have another photo of him on horseback.

We just need an opinion as to whether this uniform is consistant with this.

He also serverd for a short time with the Chesshires in WW2 but was discharged due to hearing losses sustained in fighting in WW1.

post-19182-1171880815.jpg

post-19182-1171880855.jpg

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The picture is clearly post war by the medals and he has a bandolier of a mounted soldier but that it not the RSG badge or any other Cavlary badge I can think of. Where was he from? Could it be Yeomanry? Could the fourth medal be a TD as well which required 15 (?) years service in the Territorials.

Alan

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I wonder what that fourth medal is? I'll leave that up to the experts, though.

1 stripe = L/Cpl?

Can't see any wound stripes.

Are you able to rescan and zoom in on the cap badge?

Allie

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Looks like Royal Engineers at first glance.

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I'm only finding two medal cards for a Francis Taylor in the Royal Engineers - one started off as a Corporal and ended up a Sapper (unless it's the wrong way round? Francis B Taylor: Royal Engineers 54373 Corporal, Royal Engineers 54373 Sapper), the other (Francis Grafton Taylor) went up to 2/Lieutenant (Royal Engineers 123266 Corporal, Labour Corps 292525 Corporal, Royal Engineers Second Lieutenant) which the photo is certainly not.

Allie

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Geoff,

The badge might also be 13th Hussars, Dorset Yeomanry or City of London Yeomanry (Roughriders). Need a close up to make a clear identification.

Regards

Chris

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Chris,

I had a similiar thought and favour the latter as it was a larger badge and the one in the picture does look a bit out of proportion for a RE badge.

Alan

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I do have access to the original photos, but it will take a few days to re-scan.

There is also another of him on horseback that I will try to copy as well.

I have seen photos of cavalry from the Scots guards and they appear to be the identical uniform to the posted picture, however, ata distace I guess many cavalry units appear the same.

He was from Liverpool.

In his own words from a letter written during the bombing in Liverpool in WW2...

"I don't think this war will last much longer I was in the Cheshires for a time but I got my ticket deafness from the last war - as you know I had a long spell of it. Well I don't think Gerry will drop any more on us now you would not know L'pool now I have been in some hard fighting in my time, but what we went through here was terrible"

Thans for the opinions so far...

I wonder what that fourth medal is? I'll leave that up to the experts, though.

1 stripe = L/Cpl?

Can't see any wound stripes.

Are you able to rescan and zoom in on the cap badge?

Allie

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He does look like a Royal Engineer L/cpl to me and the last medal looks like a foreign decoration the three before being the 14/15 Star, BWM and Victory.

He could just be a Sapper in a mounted role.

Rob

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Max,

That was my thought too. As a guess I would think Roughriders from the size of the badge. Let's see what the close up shows.

Regards

Chris

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Some closer views...

Cap Badge

post-19182-1171983678.jpg

Service medals

post-19182-1171983797.jpg

Another pic on horesback - ( original is very degraded )

post-19182-1171983874.jpg

(I have have found that it was definitely a different one of my gand uncles that was in the Royal Scots Greys

- see new post above)

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Still think he is a Royal Engineer and the medal by shape looks like the Teritorial Decoration.

Cheers,

Rob

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The badge is Royal Engineers and the last medal is the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal (TFEM). The latter is a long service medal for men in the TF and was for 12 years service, with wartime service counting as double.

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I think the distinctive shape would suggest the TD for that 4th medal. The cap badge however could well be RE. How wide would the average band be on the hat? As the RR badge is much bigger than the RE badge knowing the width of the hat band that would be a good refernce point.

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It's certainly not 13th Hussars or Roughriders. While the centre is blurred I agree with Counciller Broomfield, Rob and Paul that it is Royal Engineers. It has a curved scroll at the bottom which the Dorset Yeomanry did not have and the voids in the central device match those of the GRV RE badge. Well done Guys.

Regards

Chris

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If he is a long serving Territorial Royal Engineer then he is likely to be in a unit local to him at the time.

Territorials were renumbered in 1917 with numbers above 400000 allocated by unit. If we can narrow down the likely units then we can hazard a guess as to his MIC.

Steve.

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He should have a Medal Card in Series WO372/24 - MIDs, TFEMs & MSMs, and either a very low number and/or a number over 400000.

Medal card of Taylor, F (Frank)

Corps: Royal Engineers

Regiment No: 55 Latterly 78670

Rank: Driver

Possible but the later number has changed from TF to Regular...

----

Medal card of Taylor, F

Corps: Royal Engineers

Regiment No: 418013

Rank: Corporal /Acting Company Serjeant Major

(Lowland Div Sig Coy, Lanark)

Wrong area, and his name was Frederick anyway.

----

Medal card of Taylor, F

Corps: Royal Engineers

Regiment No: 37

Rank: Serjeant

I can't see a campaign medals card for him, but he is too high a rank for Francis. May well be an MID anyway, as we would expect a TFEm more towards the end of the war with a six-digit number judging by his apparent age.

Steve.

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Thanks very much for the information so far.

The expert attention to detail is astounding!!

From this I can infer that at the time of the photo, my Gand Uncle Frank was a Lance Corporal in the Territroial Royal Engineers. It is apparent that it was a mounted unit.

I am aiming to eventually find his service record.

I wonder if the medal card info mentioned previously is relevant?

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Allie's Medal Card postings are for Regular Army Royal Engineers. None of mine look likely either. :(

Did he have other names, by the way? Or was he definitely just Francis?

If you check out this webpage it shows the relevant renumberings:

http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_re.htm

We may be looking for a Signal Company man since they were more likely to be mounted than a Field Company. Also possibly Cheshire or West Lancs due to the local nature of pre-WW1 territorials.

Steve.

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It's a 1914 Star he's wearing - scrolls at top and bottom of the centre, but the bandolier obscures whether there's a clasp. Definitely a TFEM, the last medal (not/not a DECORATION, officers only and a different design). I am certain that the cap badge is Royal Engineers.

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So in summary...

I know this to be my Gr Uncle Francis Taylor b 1891 Liverpool

I know he survived WW1 and he says in a letter in 1945 that he also serverd for a short time in the Cheshires in after WW1 but deafness caused by his earlier service cut that short....

In the photos he is shown as...

* Royal Engineers (Mounted duties)

(cap badge, bandoliers, photo on horse!)

* wearing 1914/15 star, BWM, Vitory Medal and Territorial Force Medal

* inconclusive medal cards as yet

Where to next?

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Francis Taylor

Born 1891 Liverpool (Father James Bushell Taylor)

I know you say he's just Francis, no middle name... but what if he used the Bushell from his father? Going back to:

Francis B Taylor

Royal Engineers 54373 Corporal

Royal Engineers 54373 Sapper

But of course, then we have the problem of that being regular army. :unsure:

It really makes you wish there was a Soldiers Who Lived CD rom as well as a Soldiers Who Died one so we could look these Taylors up to see where they were from!

Allie

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.... he also serverd for a short time in the Cheshires in after WW1 but deafness caused by his earlier service cut that short....

Where to next?

His service in WW2 means that there should be a file held at the Ministry of Defence. Don't have the address to hand, but it will be on the NA site. You will need to prove your family connection and even then it will be at their discretion whether they allow you access to it because you are not a direct descendant (if he had no issue of his own it may be easier). If you have problems you can always ask for theminimum information on his WW1 service.

Best of luck,

Stuart

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