Sjt Cecil Tiley 2 Hants DoW 5.12.16

[Guest Pete Wood]

I am hoping that the new format on the forum, where a soldier is in the 'Remembering Today' section, will help me improve my knowledge of units about which I know very little.

I am also hoping that I can learn from some of the more experienced forum members, just how to carry out research on a soldier who has died.

So the first thing I did was to look up Sjt Cecil Tiley's details on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt of Honour Register

This shows me the following:

Name: TILEY, CECIL FRANK

Initials: C F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment: Hampshire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 20

Date of Death: 05/12/1916

Service No: 29553

Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. James Tiley, of 64, Church Rd., Tovil, Maidstone.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: II. E. 26.

Cemetery: GROVE TOWN CEMETERY, MEAULTE

On the Soldiers Died In The Great War CD Rom, I find the following additional information:

Enlisted: Bournemouth

Residence: Maidstone Kent

Died How: Died of Wounds

His residence appears to match the next of kin details on the CWGC register. So although he lived in Kent, as did his family, he chose to enlist in another county.

Next I used the cemetery details in the CWGC to find out more information. This gives me the following information:

In September 1916, the 34th and 2/2nd London Casualty Clearing Stations were established at this point, known to the troops as Grove Town, to deal with casualties from the Somme battlefields. They were moved in April 1917 and, except for a few burials in August and September 1918, the cemetery was closed. Grove Town Cemetery contains 1,392 First World War burials (1,391 identified). The cemetery was designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens.

I next look on The Long, Long Trail which can also be accessed by clicking on the top left hand corner of this web page

and look up the section - Tommies: all about the British Army of 1914-1918

Near the bottom of that page - in the MEDICAL section - I open the page on Casualty Clearing Stations to find out more information about 34CCS:

The Casualty Clearing Station was part of the casualty evacuation chain, on the lines of communication. CCS's were located on or near railway lines, to facilitate movement of casualties from the battlefield and on to the hospitals.

Grovetown: 34CCS Sep 16; 56CCS Oct 16; 2/2nd London Sep 16 - Apr 17 Near Bray sur Somme

So I know that Sjt Tiley was likely moved from the battlefield to the CCS, where he would have then been moved to a hospital if he had not died here of his wounds.

This, I assume, means that his wounds were received relatively recently.

Next I looked at the Soldiers Died In The Great War CD Rom to to see if any other soldiers had died around the same time. While there are just a few in November, it seems that the 2 Hants had not been in a major battle.

I have a few general books on the Somme. But these seem to show the main offensive was over in November 1916. So I am now guessing (!) that Sjt Tiley was probably wounded by shellfire or a sniper......

From his age, and his rank, he must have been highly regarded. I have looked up the 2 Hants on Google to find out that 2 Hants were part of the infamous 29 Division and were previously in Gallipoli. From the Long, Long Trail's order of battle, I know which brigade they were in also.

But how do I find out more information on Sjt Tiley....??

[Terry Denham]

TPots

Well done. It shows what can be learned from the comfort of your armchair.

You are going to be busy every day doing this! Especially as I know what units will be appearing - some will need some serious digging.

However, I had hoped the feature would stimulate this type of interest.

[Alison Arnold]

Teapots

According to the 1901 census Cecil was born in 1897 at Tovil in Kent. Father as we know was James age 33 born in Bradford Wilts? Mother was Alice Tiley born 1874 in Maidstone Kent. At this time there were no other siblings. James occupation is given as Blocksmith, Paper Mill.

Next I go to FreeBMD to see if his birth index has been transcribed that shows Cecil Frank Tiley born in theDecember quarter of 1896. Registration district of Maidstone.

Interestingly James married Alice in September quarter of 1896 again the registration district of Maidstone. Mothers maiden name appears to be Cooper.

So we have young Cecil to the age of 4. Anybody else got any suggestions?

Ali

[Greenwoodman]

I guess the next place I would go, Teapots, is to the Metropolis, to NA-PRO.

Medal Index Card and Medal Rolls

Personnel papers (burnt and unburnt)

War Diary

Imperial War Museum for divisional, regimental and battalion histories (if they exist)

British Museum Newspaper Library at Hendon for the Maidstone and Bournemouth local papers - may be mentioned on enlistment, departure, home on leave, wounded and finally his death.

Were you to score in all of those sources you would be well-informed about Sjt Frank Tiley. You'd also have been pretty lucky!!

[John_Hartley]

Racing (I think we should always use first names amongst Pals)

Good bit of quick research here, mate.

I take Terry's point that it's not going to be practical for someone to do this every day. But if a Forum member who had a specific interest/knowledge could post then it would spread the load and would, no doubt, be of interest to others. For example, if I spot a 17th Manchester in due course, I will be happy to post chapter and verse.

John

[Will O'Brien]

This thread has been quite heart-warming really. I have just seen Teapots, Ali & Greenwoodman describe about to the letter how I research local casualties.........I must be doing something right if others follow the same procedure

Will (feeling all smug & not quite so amateurish as usual )

[Michael]

This is great. In all probability, nobody has given this guy a second thought for decades. Now here he is for all the world to see.

Michael

[Marc Thompson]

As he's a 2nd Hants chap I'll certainly make a point of looking for his papers when I am at the PRO/NA next week.

According to the regimental history the 2nd Hants suffered 24 killed and 79 wounded between November 1st 1916 and March 31st 1917.

Although 29th Division twice carried out minor offensives during the winter, 88th Brigade was not employed in either. German shell fire was heavy, especially in retaliation for raids or bombardments, but it did not do much damage.

The battalion saw a good deal of the front line NE of Leboeufs in November and the first half of December, in trenches which heavy rain had reduced to a deplorable state. Four weeks 'out' in the Cavillon area followed.

I am currently compiling the medal rolls for the Hampshires and recording the casualty lists from the regimental journals so will have a look for Sjt Tiley there.

His name is not recorded on any war memorials in Dorset according to the book 10,000 Fallen Remembered on Dorset War Memorials.

Marc

[Greenwoodman]

Michael, you make a good point, and an outcome that I'm sure Chris and Terry would have wanted. Let's hope that, despite Terry's concern, there is a new thread started every day!

Sometime, around June 23rd 2004, a name will go up in red and someone will post a photograph and complete history, with the words -"He's on my local memorial!!"

[MartinWills]

At this point having done "the basics" it is worth asking for any further information on the really excellent "The Great War Forum".

Someone out there will have a copy of the 1881 census and will check out his father for you:

Dwelling: Whiteheads Lane

Census Place: Bradford On Avon, Wiltshire, England

Source: FHL Film 1341494 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2051 Folio 18 Page 29

Marr Age Sex Birthplace

Edmund TILEY M 47 M Road, Somerset, England

Rel: Head

Occ: Blacksmith

Sarah TILEY M 43 F Bradford, Wiltshire, England

Rel: Wife

Occ: Retired Dressmaker

James TILEY U 13 M Bradford, Wiltshire, England

Rel: Son

Occ: Porter At Wine Stores

Margaret A. TILEY U 11 F Bradford, Wiltshire, England

Rel: Daur

Occ: Scholar

William Jno. TILEY U 8 M Bradford, Wiltshire, England

Confirming that the his father was born in Bradford (Wilts), son of a blacksmith and worked, at the age of 13, as a "porter at wine stores" and had a brother and sister (in 1881) and lived in Whiteheads Lane.

No guesswork at this point about Mrs Tiley, as we know her maiden name and year/place of birth we can fairly deduce that she belonged to this family in 1881

Dwelling: Charlton Street

Census Place: Maidstone, Kent, England

Source: FHL Film 1341221 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 0928 Folio 103 Page 32

Marr Age Sex Birthplace

Edward COOPER M 38 M High Halstow, Kent, England

Rel: Head

Occ: Miller (Journeyman)

Ellen COOPER M 37 F High Halstow, Kent, England

Rel: Wife

Alfred COOPER U 18 M Wye, Kent, England

Rel: Son

Occ: Paper Cutter At Mill

Charles COOPER 15 M Aldington, Kent, England

Rel: Son

Occ: Employed At Paper Mill

Mary J. COOPER 13 F Aldington, Kent, England

Rel: Daur

Occ: Scholar

Ellen COOPER 11 F Aldington, Kent, England

Rel: Daur

Occ: Scholar

Rebecca COOPER 9 F Maidstone, Kent, England

Rel: Daur

Occ: Scholar

Alice COOPER 7 F Maidstone, Kent, England

Rel: Daur

Occ: Scholar

Edward J. COOPER 5 M Maidstone, Kent, England

Rel: Son

Martha M. COOPER 4 F Maidstone, Kent, England

Rel: Daur

Si it looks as if the grandparents started married life in Aldington, Kent and moved into Maidstone. It looks as if the boys of the family all found work at the paper mill. It looks as if James married into the family and took a job at the paper mill.

So there we have some family background.

The 29th Division does have a history, but not a roll of honour.

Given that we have the burial details a polite request on "The Great War Forum" may put you in touch with someone going to the battlefields, or even someone living there who might be close enough to Grove Town Cemetery and able to visit and take a picture for us.

Who knows, there might be an interesting inscription on the headstone?

Martin

[Terry Denham]

Richard

I don't have any concerns. I would love a new thread with this much investigation done each time making these names live again.

It would be more than I had hoped for.

I will be waiting for the day somebody shouts "That's my grandad".

And here I am waiting up till midnight just to see the name change - and I know who it's going to be !

[Terry Denham]

A full circle!

Martin mentions a paper mill near Maidstone - They were possibly Aylesford, Imperial, Tovil or Empire Paper Mills.

I started this thread in a way by putting Sjt Tiley's name in the database and I used to work at those paper mills in the late 1960s !!!!

[MartinWills]

There is the possibility that he might be detailed on the Maidstone War Memorial.

So many memorials are transcribed on the web these days that it is worth trying googling for this memorial. Sadly, there does not seem to be a transcription, but there is a picture which appears to show a ceremony there (perhaps the unveiling).

See: http://www.footstepsphotos.co.uk/Kent/ken6.htm

Of course another forum member may live nearby and be able to check the names on the memorials.

Now that someone has identified the (likely) paper mill in question one could always see if it still there, and wonder if it had a memorial of it's own. Perhaps an ex-employee might know? If not, there is always the National Inventory of War Memorials held at the IWM.

Who knows what will fall out next?

Martin

[Terry Denham]

Aylesford Paper Mill is certainly still there although under adifferent name. It can be seen from the motorway en route to the Channel Tunnel.

[MartinWills]

Now that his entry has disappeared from the top of the page it is probably worthwhile repeating the couple of lines that kicked this all off.

Our man was described succinctly as:

Sjt Cecil Frank TILEY, 29553 2 Bn, Hampshire Regt Age 20, who died on 05.12.16. Grove Town Cemetery, France

Now is someone else going to start a thread about today's man.

Pte John Alexander GRANGER, T/203530 6 Bn, The Buffs (East Kent Regt), who died on 06.12.17. Le Cateau Military Cemetery, France

[christine liava'a]

A further step, which may result in living relatives, is to look for Tiley websites on Ancestry message boards

Tiley message board

or in GenforumTiley Family Genealogy Forum

The Mormon Familysearch site could also be used

[MartinWills]

I wonder if the time has come for Chris to use this thread as an exmaple of the basic research that can be done with the aid of The Long Long Trail, easily accessible sources of Info and the help of the pals.

Martin

[Chris_Baker]

Nice idea Martin. I'll create a web page for it soon. Might also be worth an article for say "Stand To!".

[Guest Pete Wood]

I have put messages on the Tiley family websites, and contacted the webmasters of the two sites that specialise in the Tiley surname.

On one website I found the following information:

James Tiley (b. 1771) was a blacksmith as were several of his descendants. There were branches of the family in several villages on the Somerset/Wiltshire border such as Rode, Beckington, Frome and Bradford-on-Avon. One branch moved to Maidstone, Kent and some members of this branch emigrated to Australia and to Canada in the late 20th century.

I then used the www.google.com search engine to find the post code for Maidstone which is 'ME.'

You need the postcode to search the online records of the British Telecom (BT) telephone directory. This yielded zero results. So there is no one, today, living in the maidstone area - with the surname of Tiley - who is listed.

[Kate Wills]

This may not necessarily be the case RT. The Tileys may be ex-directory (perhaps a victim of too many double-glazing calls), or they may have continued through a female line, or maybe there is someone in a nursing home, for example. Only a trawl through the present electoral roll could determine the absence, or presence, of Tileys.

[Guest Pete Wood]

I totally agree with you, Kate. That is why the last words of the last line say:

"So there is no one, today, living in the maidstone area - with the surname of Tiley - who is listed. "

The website info also suggests that SOME (not all) of Tiley family members are still living locally: ".....some members of this branch emigrated to Australia and to Canada in the late 20th century."

I still think that there may be Tiley members with vaulable info, to be found. But I do take your point about the electoral register.

Just how do you find out info on a name, without trawling through thousands and thousands of street names - when you have no other leads....??

[Terry Denham]

Kate/TPots

Even the Electoral Roll may not answer the question.

The Roll available for public inspection is no longer the complete version as electors now have the right to keep their name off the public version. Only certain people are allowed the full version - and that does NOT include any copy for public viewing - libraries etc.

The restricted people allowed the full copy include local councillors, debt collection agencies etc and they are not allowed to show you a copy by law (fine up to £5000 for doing so!).

[Northern Soul]

[On the Soldiers Died In The Great War CD Rom, I find the following additional information:

Enlisted: Bournemouth

Residence: Maidstone Kent

Died How: Died of Wounds

His residence appears to match the next of kin details on the CWGC register. So although he lived in Kent, as did his family, he chose to enlist in another county.

]

From my own researches and use of Soldiers Died, I have come to the conclusion that the "lived/resided" entry actually refers to the n.o.k. rather than the individual soldier. After coming across many entries such as b. Town A, e. Town B, l. Town A I too wondered why someone should go so far from home to enlist. When such entries were checked against whatever biographical details I could find it transpired that in all cases the soldier was living away.

This actually makes sense. The Army couldn't have cared less where a recruit lived; they were going to live where the Army told them! However, they would need to know the address of the n.o.k. - and this information is specifically asked for on the Attestation Forms, and I guess that in the main the geographical information in SD was compiled from this basic source.

My thinking may be incorrect but it has allowed me to identify some names on local memorials e.g. Pte. T. Burns, b. Bury, e. Barrow-in-Furness, l. Bury - I asked myself the question why should anyone travel all the way from Bury to Barrow (pre-war judging by the Service Number) to enlist in the Lancashire Fusiliers when it would be easier to do so in Bury where, in theory, they already lived. The answer has to be that they were living in or near Barrow-in-Furness with their n.o.k. residing at Bury; hence the appearance of their name on a local memorial.

Any thoughts?

Andy.

[Guest Pete Wood]

The Roll available for public inspection is no longer the complete version as electors now have the right to keep their name off the public version.

Good point, Terry.

A few of my old school-chums organised a school reunion last year, when we all turned 40.

We used a website called www.192.com which you can use to put someone's name into - and check the electoral role. Last year this very useful facility was free. It helped us track down 10 of our old classmates.

But there were two people who we tracked down via other means, who were not listed on the electoral role (for a variety of reasons).

What astounded me was how many people were still living within a 25 mile radius of our old school - about 60%. Of the remaining 40%, at least half of them still had close family who informed our old chums of the reunion.

We managed to find 57 classmates, from a total of 63 (of whom three were found to be dead, which made us all pause for a few seconds).

If any one can make the 192.com site work, it is a useful tool. For some reason, I can't get it to work, even though I have 8 credits.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Well thanks to a Mr Peter Tiley, who runs a Tiley family website and answered my request for information, we can build up a slightly better picture of Cecil and his relations.

We knew that Cecil's grandfather (and great plus great-great grandfathers) was a blacksmith.

James Tiley moved to Maidstone along with his brother William John.

James, as we know married Alice Cooper. The couple had three children:

Cecil Frank Tiley (born 1896)

William James Tiley (1898)

Winifred Edith Tiley (1899)

When Cecil died of his wounds, his father (James) was living in Tovil, Maidstone. The family later moved to 87 College Rd, Maidstone - and now James was a porter.

James died in 1947 and six years later, Alice passed away.

We now know that Cecil's brother, William James, was married twice and died in Basingstoke in 1956.

Winifred married a local man, Cecil E May (who shared the same forename as her soldier brother), in 1926.

Sadly this is all the information we have on this branch of the family. We do, though, have lots of information on Cecil's cousins - all of William John's family. it is this branch of the family who emigrated to Australia and Canada. One of the Tiley girls married the infamous Richard Beeching - the man who changed the railway system.....

I haven't given up all hope. There are just a few Tiley's in the phone book for Basingstoke. So I shall give them a try over the next few days......