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Remembered Today:

Anyone needing help searching a trench?


Joan and Terry

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Hi Colin,

Thank you for the map, this is very helpful.

All I need to do now is try to overlay this on a larger map so I can see where it falls between LeTransloy and Beaulencourt. I've only seen this trench map out of context, so I'm unable to identify on a map of the larger area where the trench had been.

I just noticed that on this map Boritska is spelled differently to how I have seen it mentioned before.

My great uncle's name is on the Thiepval Memorial to the missing. Would this be near LeTransloy?

Thanks again for the quick response,

Mark

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Joan,

I am trying to research 2nd Lieutenant George Prince Mountford Scudamore who was killed 8/5/1915 with A Company - 2nd Battalion Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regt.

I believe he will at 7.00 am on the 8th May have been in front line trenches in front of Frezenberg.

Heavy shelling killed many that morning.

By 11.35 am orders were given to retire to Potijze. I believe this officer was killed between 7.00 am and 11.35 am prior to retirement.

I am trying to pinpoint the trench in which he was killed and track down a section of any trench map showing the trench location and nearest village location?

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks

Clive

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  • 5 years later...
On 19/03/2008 at 21:51, tmanmerlin said:

Hi,

Long shot here, looking for "dragon alley", a german trench south-ish around Moeuvres. Nov 1917ish. thanks in advance

I know this was a long time ago, but I am also looking for Dragon Alley.

 

Also raised here:

"Any chance some of ya'll can confirm that werk drachenburg is the Dragon Alley Junger mentions, when the 7th and 8th companies of the 73rd, relieved the 225th ( from 49th div) somewhere in the area between the Wonton line (II ) and the Siegfried line, near the 3rd or 4th lock of the canal Nord.

I am trying to follow the book and the trench to see how well they mesh." tmanmerlin

Ernst Junger describes ...

1 Dec 17 3pm from Castle grounds at Baralle to Reg HQ at lock-chamber of a drained canal, then advance 500 yds of canal to reserve, wait in crater field to right

11pm orders to advance into erstwhile front line, at last found spot where the canal met the front line, follow crowded trenches to Bn HQ

2 Dec 7am to roll up Dragon Alley and as much as possible of the Siegfried Line

“I had absolutely no idea where Dragon Alley was” spotted sign on a sap going forward, located British, right into Siegfried

Here he captured around 200 British, anyone know which unit?

Noon - fight along trench on left of pillbox. British flee along trench that doubles back, only 10 paces apart at narrowest

Wounded, Junger retires, skirting past Moeuvres to the dugout in the canal.

 

Detail (possibly not the right detail) from map 57C.NE corrected 20 Sep 17 http://maps.nls.uk/view/101465164

 

Thanks in advance!

Moeuvres.jpg

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I have a few German maps of the area, I cannot see a Dragon or Drachen but maybe the translation needs to be a bit looser?

One of them shows the area just to the South of Moeuvres but sadly I do not have the sheet to the North.

moeuvers1:-           Divisionskarte P.        12/11/1917        Streng Geheim

moeuvers2:-        1445 Zusammendruck        Gruppenkarte Havrincourt    14/09/1918    18/09/1918

 

Full maps on Dropbox here.

 

Howard

moeuvres1.jpg

moeuvres2.jpg

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These are excellent, thank you Howard. I'll take a proper look at them next week. 

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1 hour ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

These are excellent, thank you Howard. I'll take a proper look at them next week. 

Here is a Drackenburgh Post marked on a British map just South of Inchy-en-Artois

moeuvres3.jpg:-    1:20,000    57C NE, Overprinted 25/09/1918 , Annotated with brigade boundries and timings. Top 5,500 yards only, sheet bottom missing.     Trenches and enemy organisation corrected to 20/8/1918   

 

Howard

moeuvres3.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Hello, I appreciate that some forum members know Cambrai like the back of their hand, just adding a little on location ... 

From Bryn Hammond 'Cambrai 1917': Junger's Fusilier 73rd Regt, 111th Div, fought along old Hindenburg front system against units of 6th Brigade incl survivors of 13th Essex who were soon overwhelmed. Germans managed to get behind HQ of 1st Kings and took prisoners. British counter attack by 17th Middlesex, and later two coys 2nd HLI.

1st King’s Regt, 6th Bde, 2nd Div War Diary

1st Dec Strong bombing attack in Edda Weg, enemy forming in E15 a+b, seen crossing south of Lock 5 working along Elsa Weg but forced back.

2nd Dec Having been turned out of Bn HQ. ‘About 12 noon ‘A’ Coy of the 17th Middlesex came up in support and bombed the enemy back along Ernst Weg as far as E20d23 where a block was formed.’

This would put us just south of Moeuvres.

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To add... 6th Bde War Diary for 3rd December 17 “6pm 2nd H.L.I. report enemy killed this afternoon belong to 73rd and 226th F.R.”

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  • 6 years later...

Anyone know why Z-Trench is so named (50°10'11.80"N 3°13'6.70"E).  It looks more like an 'S' than a 'Z'.  Cheers, Bill

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I am tracing my G/Uncles short time on the Western front in 1918. He served with 1/Sherwood Foresters in the Aisne and was KIA on the first day of the German attack.

In the regimental diary there are 4 trenches mentioned where they spent time prior to the start of the attacks.

These trenches and their CP's are; Verdun, Tulipe, Rose and Henry, there is also a mention of "The Quarries" NW of Roucy. 

Any help in locating these would be great. We are hoping to visit the area next year and spend time following the movements as in the regimental diary.

John

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Tulipe trench has a distinctive spelling, there is one on sheet 20 at 20.T.9.b.44.56. You can find that in TrenchMapper with Advanced Search. Then swap maps in the left panel.

There are numerous features called Rose or Henry. Roucy is a long way south of sheet 20.

Are all these features in the same local area?

There is a Henry Trench 20.O.26.b.60.22, Rose House not far away at 20.U.24.d.9.2.

Howard

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On 22/12/2023 at 20:53, john metcalfe said:

I am tracing my G/Uncles short time on the Western front in 1918. He served with 1/Sherwood Foresters in the Aisne and was KIA on the first day of the German attack.

In the regimental diary there are 4 trenches mentioned where they spent time prior to the start of the attacks.

These trenches and their CP's are; Verdun, Tulipe, Rose and Henry, there is also a mention of "The Quarries" NW of Roucy. 

Any help in locating these would be great. We are hoping to visit the area next year and spend time following the movements as in the regimental diary.

John

John

There is this French map in the May 1918 War Diary of the Commander Royal Engineers 8 Div which shows the locations of the four P Cs. I have cropped it to show them. The margins on the map shows the French Grid References qouted in the 1 Sherwood Foresters WD. Courtesy TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1691. Still working on the Quarries.

Brian

1691 8 CRE.jpg

8 CRE 2.jpg

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1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

May 1918 War Diary of the Commander Royal Engineers 8 Div which shows the locations of the four P C

Nice work @brianmorris547, I knew you'd get us there!

Here they are on a modern map and georeferenced on Brian's extract.  Click to enlarge:

  • Verdun, D 1044, Juvincourt-et-Damary, Laon, Aisne, Hauts-de-France, Metropolitan France, 02190, France.  Great War reference 76.J.7.c.64.85
  • Tulipe, Chemin de la Tuilette, Juvincourt-et-Damary, Laon, Aisne, Hauts-de-France, Metropolitan France, 02190, France.  Great War reference 76.J.2.c.22.53
  • Henry, Chemin de la Tuilette, Juvincourt-et-Damary, Laon, Aisne, Hauts-de-France, Metropolitan France, 02190, France.  Great War reference 76.J.2.a.98.61
  • Rose, D 1044, Juvincourt-et-Damary, Laon, Aisne, Hauts-de-France, Metropolitan France, 02190, France.  Great War reference 76.I.12.b.93.63

image.png.228fca5f50f373a992490194916355b0.png

image.png.0122e549074d39e9c46a857680c0cc3f.png

 

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The map was in two parts in the WD of CRE 8 Div. Here is the other part showing Roucy mid left below the canal in 215 295. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1691.

Brian

43112_1691_0-00537.jpg

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Many thanks guys for the hard work in locating these areas it is really appreciated.

Me and "she who shall be obeyed" will hopefully, if all works out with the planning etc be spending around a week visiting the area following the regimental diary as closely as possible visiting the locations mentioned within it.

It seems ironic that 2 years ago we rode our motorbike through France on our way to Genoa to catch the ferry to Tunisia, where we now live. On the route down we made a point of stopping in Soissons and visited the memorial to pay our respects to my Gt Uncle and the others mentioned who lost their lives and have no known grave. As we left Soissons our route unknown to us took us passed a number of locations with the WD. 

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HI.  I am actually researching TS Eliot's The Waste Land.  I understand that Mr Chasseaud's book has just one reference to a trench called Rats Alley.  Can you confirm this for me.  And can you tell me if Mr Chasseaud gives a reason for titling his book Rats Alley? Is he actually referencing the Waste Land or does he have another reason? 

 

Thank you

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  • Admin

Welcome to the forum.

There is one trench referenced at Zillebeke called Rat Alley. 

I have no idea re TS Elliot I’m afraid. 

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In my copy of Peter’s book, the gazetteer of trench names does not include Rats Alley. It has Rat Alley.

On page 30 he references The Waste Land but encourages readers to read Paul Fussell’s The Great War and Modern Memory in which Fussell expands on the ideas and language of the First World War. I seem to have lost my copy so cannot check if that has a Rats Alley or Rats’ Alley.

Peter may have written why he chose Rats Alley but in a quick look I did not spot it.

Howard

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28 minutes ago, Howard said:

In my copy of Peter’s book, the gazetteer of trench names does not include Rats Alley. It has Rat Alley.

On page 30 he references The Waste Land but encourages readers to read Paul Fussell’s The Great War and Modern Memory in which Fussell expands on the ideas and language of the First World War. I seem to have lost my copy so cannot check if that has a Rats Alley or Rats’ Alley.

Peter may have written why he chose Rats Alley but in a quick look I did not spot it.

Howard

Thank you for your response. 

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2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum.

There is one trench referenced at Zillebeke called Rat Alley. 

I have no idea re TS Elliot I’m afraid. 

 

I have an image found online,  I don't know if genuine.   

rats alley - source unknown.jpg

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Put (just) Rats into Advanced Search in TrenchMapper. That gives the same map so it is "real".

Howard

Edited by Howard
Typo
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  • Admin

I’ve found a Rats Alley 66cNW4 Berthenicourt I 28 c (I only looked in a great hurry yesterday) 

11 hours ago, NeilP said:

 

I have an image found online,  I don't know if genuine.   

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40 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

I’ve found a Rats Alley 66cNW4 Berthenicourt I 28 c (I only looked in a great hurry yesterday) 

That's the one, at Sheet 66c.I.28.c.5.4 as the map above.

TrenchMapper saves so much time!

Howard

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  • Admin

I still like analogue, paper maps and books. I appreciate all you and WSL have done but nothing will ever induce me to rejoin the WFA to get the full benefit to TrenchMapper. 

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