Andrew Upton Posted 14 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2007 I've just copied this from a post about trench raids, describing an action by 18th KRRC in July 1916. Can I assume that the hooks referred to are like the one being discussed here? Party B 10 bombers, each carrying a knobkerrie & 10 bombs. Party C Lieut Wingfield & 9 men carrying knobkerries & hooks. Sounds like it - I can imagine what the enemy's reaction would be if someone came at him with one of 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 19 February , 2007 Share Posted 19 February , 2007 Andrew, Did a look through the 1893 PV of Stores (not 1894). Could find no scabbard or similar contraption. I could easily still be looking under the wrong nomenclature. I could give you the LoC numbers if want for the bill-hook.maye the scabbard just isn't called out separately. I kind of doubt since for common things the PV not only goes into end items but also repair parts. There is a plethora of different type panniers, holdalls etc. Maybe the bill went into one of these? Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Hauraki KIA KAHA Posted 19 February , 2007 Share Posted 19 February , 2007 Hi Andrew I have not forgotten, Tim our store man has a copy from a manual and his made up one. His wife is due to have a baby, so he has his mind on other things I will post a photo of his one he made. and the illustration from the manual, once he has time to spare. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 20 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Andrew, Did a look through the 1893 PV of Stores (not 1894). Could find no scabbard or similar contraption. I could easily still be looking under the wrong nomenclature. I could give you the LoC numbers if want for the bill-hook.maye the scabbard just isn't called out separately. I kind of doubt since for common things the PV not only goes into end items but also repair parts. There is a plethora of different type panniers, holdalls etc. Maybe the bill went into one of these? Joe Sweeney Hi Andrew I have not forgotten, Tim our store man has a copy from a manual and his made up one. His wife is due to have a baby, so he has his mind on other things I will post a photo of his one he made. and the illustration from the manual, once he has time to spare. Jonathan Thanks Joe and Jonathan, look forward to seeing what it looks like eventually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombadier Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Thanks Joe and Jonathan, look forward to seeing what it looks like eventually! Which, the scabbard or the baby Sorry, off topic but couldn't resist it. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 21 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2007 Which, the scabbard or the baby Sorry, off topic but couldn't resist it. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.r.f Posted 21 February , 2007 Share Posted 21 February , 2007 just thought that you might be interseted.the bil hook pictured at the begining of this thread is a BRISTOL bill hook.Used in this area,non-military for hedging and ditching.Throughout the country there are dozens,posible hundreds of different paterns for the bill hook. CHEERS JOHN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 21 February , 2007 Share Posted 21 February , 2007 this is worth looking at too.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picardowoods Posted 21 February , 2007 Share Posted 21 February , 2007 Hi all There was at least one issue case for billhooks I found listed in a Priced Vocab (NO Date, but circa 1875), for APPOINTMENTS AND TOOLS, PIONEERS, rather than Section 1 - Accoutrements. Cases, leather, black. Ordinary and valise equipment Bill hook Reasonably priced @ 3s 1d each Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 21 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2007 All good stuff, thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 From 'Equipment of Infantry' HMSO, 1865. Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walrus Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 I think that it's worth bearing in mind that the billhook "cases" are not for general use but were part of the pioneer uniform (along with leather aprons and axe cases on slings). I feel it would be incorrect to assume the widespread use of these cases in the Great War. Just my two penn'orth Tom the Walrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 I think that it's worth bearing in mind that the billhook "cases" are not for general use but were part of the pioneer uniform (along with leather aprons and axe cases on slings). I feel it would be incorrect to assume the widespread use of these cases in the Great War. Just my two penn'orth Tom the Walrus I agree, as per my comments earlier in this thread. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 18 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2007 From 'Equipment of Infantry' HMSO, 1865. Chris Henschke Many thanks for that Chris - do you happen to know what the second "dot" is, the one that appears at the top of the stitching on the right hand side as you look at it? The higher dot would appear to be a brass post for closing the flap, but the point of the lower dot eludes me... I looked under the nomenclature for "cases" and they do not appear in the 1893 through 1915 PV of Stores. They were probably declared obsolete prior to that date--or the nomenclature changed to something I can't figure out. I can see the need for one for safety and legal reason's (???)--the legal part astounds me--but would not assume that any survived issue into the Great War in any numbers if at all. Joe Sweeney Many thanks for that again, I should point out that the health and safety aspect of carrying a sharp tool about without a scabbard is what mostly prompted this thread, although given their appearance on the trench raids thread a while ago, I'm thinking of adding it to my trench raiders gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 18 March , 2007 Share Posted 18 March , 2007 Judging by its position it is probably a reinforcing rivet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2007 Judging by its position it is probably a reinforcing rivet. Ah, of course! Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 There was a later case for the billhook : Case, black, bill-hook. (Mark II.) 'The "Case, bill-hook" differs from the previous pattern (§1944), in being a little smaller, to correspond with the reduced size of the latest pattern bill-hook (§10976).' List of Change 10975, dated 4th April, 1901 Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 26 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 26 March , 2007 There was a later case for the billhook : Case, black, bill-hook. (Mark II.) “The “Case, bill-hook” differs from the previous pattern (§1944), in being a little smaller, to correspond with the reduced size of the latest pattern bill-hook (§10976).” LOC 10975, dated 4th April, 1901 Chris Henschke Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 26 March , 2007 Share Posted 26 March , 2007 Andrew, After seeing Chris's posts I went back to the "PV Stores" as those LoC numbers are too close to the war to have not been recorded. Well I was wrong that this wasn't in the "PV of stores". I was looking in the wrong volumns. "Case, Bill Hook" leather is in both the 1909 and 1915 versions. It is found in Volumn II and is in a section 14 entitled "Horse and Field Artillery Carriages, and their Appurtenances". Cost 3s 2d. Not where I would have expected, i.e some kind of accoutrement or camp impliment, and on the same page where you could cost a 13pdr carriage for £360. So these things were definately available. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 26 March , 2007 Author Share Posted 26 March , 2007 Andrew, After seeing Chris's posts I went back to the "PV Stores" as those LoC numbers are too close to the war to have not been recorded. Well I was wrong that this wasn't in the "PV of stores". I was looking in the wrong volumns. "Case, Bill Hook" leather is in both the 1909 and 1915 versions. It is found in Volumn II and is in a section 14 entitled "Horse and Field Artillery Carriages, and their Appurtenances". Cost 3s 2d. Not where I would have expected, i.e some kind of accoutrement or camp impliment, and on the same page where you could cost a 13pdr carriage for £360. So these things were definately available. Joe Sweeney Excellent! Many thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 21 May , 2007 Share Posted 21 May , 2007 Here's a WW2 version currently on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bill-H00k_W0QQitemZ290...1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 12 October , 2009 Share Posted 12 October , 2009 I know this is an old thread but I was wondering if anyone had anymore info or pictures of the leather carrier mentioned in post 44. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppertales Posted 20 October , 2009 Share Posted 20 October , 2009 I saw one of those billhooks at a gun show in Fort Worth last weekend. I wish I had read this thread beforehand. Also, it pains me to hear of all the de-activated firearms you guys have. At the gun show two weeks ago one table was selling a de-activated P-14. I now understand how the hole is drilled in the chamber of the barrel. Over here, this rifle is still considered a firearm as the receiver is not altered and can be restored to servicable condition....chris3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bulloch Posted 28 October , 2009 Share Posted 28 October , 2009 I know this is an old thread, but I came across this list of Appointments and tools, Pioneers, and it mentions "Cases, Leather,Bill hook" Cheers Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 12 November , 2009 Share Posted 12 November , 2009 I bought this example of a French 'serpe' yesterday. Very nice piece. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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