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Officers rank


Sullivan

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Am I correct in assuming the rank shown on this officers cuff is that of Lieutenant.

This officer was a 2nd Lieutenant when the 2nd Batt. RMF were forced to surrender after the Etreux rearguard action. His name was H.A. Newson.

Was it normal practice for officers to be promoted during period of captivity.

Searched the London gazette but no information.

Trust learned members of the Forum can assist.

Sullivan.

post-148-1171072375.jpg

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That is a Lieutenant. 2nd Lt would be one pip. As for promotion whilst a prisioner, I am not sure!

It could be that he was acting Lt (not sure if this happened) or that his promotion was in the pipeline when he was captured. This is a good question, not seen this asked before, hopefully someone who has a better grasp than me will come along!

regards

Arm

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This post got me thinking about John Kipling. He had been promoted to Lieutenant when he disappeared but the consensus seems to be that the second pip was not worn until gazetted, even if the officer knew he had been promoted. This implies to me, that the officer in the photo had been promoted and it had been gazetted.

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I guess it could be that as a prisioner he was wearing a uniform that was not his? and got the nearest he could.

Arm

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QUOTE (Phil_B @ Feb 10 2007, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Could be a picture taken after release. He`s quite smart for a POW! Phil B

Phil,

Photo was taken while he was interned in Friedburg POW camp.

Refer to my post on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=68340

There is full photo of Lieut. Harry Newson with French officer.

I have searched the London Times and have come across a reference to promotions. The print is very small but it would seem as suggested by one member he was promoted to acting Lieut. I will enlarge the segment of the page and in due course post on this thread for interest of members.

It seems that enterprising German photographers used to visit POW camps and take photos, processing them on the same day in postcard format for men to send home. Note, Newson did not use his home address but a club address, perhaps for reasons of security for his mother.

My thanks to Forum members for responding your comments are appreciated, continue the good work.

Sullivan.

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It was a lot easier in WW1 for POW's to receive gifts and supplies from home (as opposed to WW2 where things were much tighter security wise), especially for Officers and those with plenty of spending money. Indeed, on display in the Imperial War Museum recently in their "Escape" display was an officers tunic which had been sent to an officer interned in Germany to replace his now worn out original. The German guards evidently didn't check it very closely, or they would have realised that, once turned inside out, it in fact looked like a civilian suit, which aided his eventual escape!

So if the officer in question had been promoted after his capture, it would not be impossible for him to receive a new tunic with his updated rank.

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Phil,

I have searched the London Times and have come across a reference to promotions. The print is very small but it would seem as suggested by one member he was promoted to acting Lieut. I will enlarge the segment of the page and in due course post on this thread for interest of members.

Sullivan.

Attached extract image from the full page of the Times dated June 8 1915. I have enlarged the extract as best I can without distortion and loss of clarity.

H.A. Newson was a POW at the end of the day August 27 1914.

The Times report reads as follows -

"R. Mun. Fus.- Capt. E.P. Conway to be Maj.(May 10)' Sec. Lts. to be Lts. tempy. from Aug. 30, substantive from Nov, 30:-

H.A. Newson, C.S. King (since killed in action), C.H. Corrigan, K.O.B. Pottinger, W.F.M. O'Leary, J.H. Sugrue.

Sec. Lt. H.R.H. O' Reilly to be Lt,rempy. from Sep 17, substantive from Dec 17.

I have more or less answered my own original question. However it would seem promotions were made with officers in captivity, unless as one member said 'promotion may have been in the pipe line'.

Hope this small item of interest to Forum members.

Sullivan.

post-148-1171156582.jpg

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Another of the Etreux POWs, Captain Jervis, was promoted whilst Interned in Holland.

London Gazette 12-11-1918

R. Muns. Fus.—Capt. H. S. Jervis to be Maj. 24th Dec. 1914.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSe...p;selHonorType=

I have done some "facts and figures" research on him if you are interested...

Steve.

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Another of the Etreux POWs, Captain Jervis, was promoted whilst Interned in Holland.

London Gazette 12-11-1918

R. Muns. Fus.—Capt. H. S. Jervis to be Maj. 24th Dec. 1914.

I have done some "facts and figures" research on him if you are interested...

Steve.

Steve,

Many thanks, I am interested and would appreciate any facts and figures. Post on Forum or Send a PM if you wish.

Also picked up your posts 1 & 2 on Units & Formations re Etreux missing, many thanks.

Cheers,

Sullivan.

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Here is what I have gathered on Captain Jervis:

Colonel Herbert Swynfen Jervis, M.C., Hon. R.C.M.

Personal and family

Born at Weston Super Mare, Somerset on 14 April 1878. "Born into the battalion". Fifth child, Second son.

Father:

Colonel William Swynfen Jervis (b. 9th November 1839, Aligarh, Uttar Pradesh, India, d. 3rd April 1920)

Present at Cawnpore and Lucknow during Indian Mutiny, 1857-58. Royal Bengal Fusiliers - 101st Regiment of Foot, Ensign : 4 Feb 1857; Lt : 30 Apr 1858; Capt : 8 Dec 1865; Major ??????; Lt. Col. 1-7-1881; Ret. 15-10-1881; Hon. Col. ??????; to 1st Warwickshire (Birmingham) Rifle Volunteer Corps as Lt Col., 4-3-1882. One of original founders of Warwickshire Cricket Club.

An in depth webpage of William Jervis (interesting character - he never met his father until he stepped off the boat in India when he too had joined the Army):

http://www.cricketarchive.com/Archive/Articles/1/1467.html

Mother:

Mrs Harriet Jervis (b.1845, Grandthorp, Warwickshire, nee Wise, m. 1865, Bridge, Kent, only child of the Rev. William Wise, M.A., of Granborough and Wappenbury, Warwickshire.)

Siblings :

Constance Annie Jervis (b.c1866, Cawnpore, India),

Swynfen John Jervis (b. c1868, Cawnpore, India),

Edith Mary Jervis (b.1871, Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire),

Ethel Lorina Jervis (b. 1876, Weston Super Mare, Somerset),

Lily Gertrude Jervis (b. 1881, twin ?, Warwick, Warwickshire),

Violet Maud Jervis (b. 1881, twin ?, Warwick, Warwickshire),

Agnes Florence Jervis (b. 1882, Leamington, Warwickshire, died 1895),

Dora Sophia Jervis (b.1883, Warwick, Warwickshire),

Francis William Swynfen Jervis (b.1887, Warwick, Warwickshire)

Possibly also Charles Swynfen P Jervis (born 1882 and died same year).

Harriet died in 1914 at Southsea. William remarried in 1918 to Annie Cook, widow of William Anthony Cook of Southsea. William died on 3-4-1920 at Southsea, Hampshire.

Locations of family per Censuses, etc. (also based on above webpage):

1871 : Farnborough Barracks.

1871 : Bury, Lancs.

1872 : Manchester

1873 : Fleetwood

1873 : Weston Super Mare, Somerset.

1874 : Aldershot

1875 : Weston Super Mare, Somerset.

1878 : Halifax, Nova Scotia.

1881 : 31 Tachbrook Rd, Leamington Priors, Warwickshire.

1882 : Father forms Warwickshire Cricket Club with 3 others.

1884 : Warwick.

1888 : Warwick.

1891 : 61 Warwick Road, Leamington, Warwickshire.

1893 : Woodside, Queens Crescent, Southsea.

1901 : Woodside, Queens Crescent, Southsea.

Marriage:

Married in 1907 to Marie Theresa Donlea (died 1935)

Education:

Oxford Military College; RMC Sandhurst. (Passed with Honours)

Army Career

Commissioned to Royal Munster Fusiliers as Second Lieutenant from Royal Military College, 16-2-1898 (Times 15-2-1898)

Promoted to Lieutenant from 11-3-1899 (LG 9-5-1899)

Served S. African War, 1899-1902 with 1st Royal Munster Fusiliers {Lieutenant} (Who's Who)

Discharged to Duty from Hospital at Cape Town, w/e 20-5-1900 {Lieutenant} (Times 2-6-1900)

Promoted to Captain, 30-7-1906 (London Gazette 7-9-1906)

Seconded to be ADC of GOC 1st Rawalpindi District from 30-10-1910 to 13-5-1911 {Captain} (Times 22-1-1910, 16-7-1910 & 3-6-1911)

Graduated at Staff College, Quetta, 1913. {Captain} (Times 9-4-1935)

Commander of "D" Company at Etreux 27-8-1914. Taken POW {Captain} (RoyalMunsterFusiliers.net)

Listed Missing in Times of 5-9-1914 - Jervis, Capt H S, Royal Munster Fus. (POW {1}) [also listed - 2/Lt C E V Awdry (KIA), Major P A Charrier (KIA), Lt C F T Chute (KIA), 2/Llt J C B Crozier (KIA), Lt C J V Deane-Drake (POW {2}), Lt E W Gower (POW {1}), Capt C R Hall (???), Lt R A D Moseley (POW {1}), 2/Lt H A Newson (POW{1}), Lt T F O'Malley (POW {1}), Lt C F Phayre (KIA - 1st of 2 sons killed in 1914), Capt C R Rawlinson (POW {2}), Capt G N Simms (???), 2/Lt P H Sullivan (???), 2/Lt R W Thomas (???), Capt D Wise (POW {1})]

(POW {1} - Interned in Holland, 7-2-18; POW {2} - Interned in Holland 23-1-18)

Interned at Scheveningen, Holland with 96 officers and 210 men arriving at 10pm on 7-2-1918 {Captain} (Times 9-2-1918)

Promoted to Major effective from 24th December 1914 - whilst still POW (LG 12-11-1918)

Awarded Military Cross for actions at Etreux 27-8-1914 on 30th January 1920 {Capt (Acting Lt. Col.)}

Commanded 2nd Batt. RMF, vice Lt Col V T Worship, DSO, from 23-5-1919 to 31-7-1922 upon disbandment {Lt Col.}. (LG 5-6-1919 & LG ?)

Appointed to Staff as GSO, 2nd Grade {at Lancashire ?} from 25-11-1922 {Lt Col} (Times 21-2-1923 & LG 22-12-1922)

"Served on the staff in Lancashire, AHQ India and Quetta, India" (Who's Who)

Promoted to Colonel, 1923 (Who's Who, Specific reference not found)

Awarded Chevalier of the Order of the Crown of Roumania (Who's Who, Specific reference not found)

Appointed Assistant Adjutant General at Army HQ, Delhi from 17-11-1925 to 17-11-1929 {Col.} (Times 16-12-1925, 27-3-1926 & 18-12-1929)

Placed on half-pay, 17-11-1929 {Col.} (Times 18-12-1929)

Commanded 125th Lancashire Fusilier Bde (TA), 1-6-1930 to Oct (?) 1931 {Col.} (Times 14-5-1930, 24-5-1930 & 14-10-1931)

Commandant Royal Military School of Music and Inspector of Bands, Kneller Hall, 18-10-1931 to 7-4-1935 (Times 14-10-1931 & 9-4-1935)

Retired pay, 10-4-1935 (Times 9-4-1935)

Medals and awards

Military Cross

Queens South Africa Medal (Possibly 3 Bars per picture on RoyalMunsterFusiliers.net)

India General Service Medal (Assumed from picture - 1 Bar ?)

1914 Star

British War Medal

Victory Medal

Chevalier of the Order of the Crown of Roumania (Specific reference not found)

Other offices

Pres. Officers' Dinner Club Royal Munster Fusiliers

Pres. Old Comrades Association RMF

Pres. Hounslow OCA

Hon. Vice-Pres. British Red Cross Society (Hon. Life Member), Surrey.

Distinguished War Service Certificate, BRCS.

Publications: The 2nd Munsters in France; A Regimental Calendar.

Recreations: music, gardening, and golf.

Addresses

Munster, Tilford, Farnham, Surrey (c. 1931)

Lower Hall, Mellor, Derbyshire (c. 1931)

Family

One son - Captain John Swnfen Jervis, S. Staffs. Regt killed in action during the attack on Caen, Normandy on 8-7-1944)

Two daughters - Sheila Marion (married 24-1-1931, Johnson-Fergusson) and Monica (married Kempson).

Death

Died peacefully on 4th September 1965 at Dumfries, aged 87. (daughter Sheila’s address ?)

Cremated 10th September 1965 after service at Tilford Church

--

Who's who entry:

JERVIS, Col; Herbert Swynfen (b. Farnham, Surrey* 14 April 1878 - d. 4 September 1965)

MC; Hon. RCM;

2nd son of late Col W. S. Jervis; married 1907, Marie T. Donlea (died 1935); (one son Capt. J. S. Jervis, S. Staffs. Regt killed in action Normandy 1944) two daughters. Education: Oxford Military College; RMC Sandhurst. Work: Joined Royal Munster Fusiliers, 1898; commanded 2nd Batt., 1919-1922; served on the staff in Lancashire, AHQ India and Quetta, India; Colonel, 1923; served S. African War, 1899-1902; European War, 1914-1918 (MC); Chevalier of the Order of the Crown of Roumania; Commanded 125th Lancashire Fusilier Bde (TA), 1930-1931; Commandant Royal Military School of Music, Kneller Hall, 1931-1935; retired pay, 1935; Pres. Officers' Dinner Club Royal Munster Fusiliers; Pres. Old Comrades Association RMF; Hon. Vice-Pres. British Red Cross Society (Hon. Life Member), Surrey. Distinguished War Service Certificate, BRCS. Publications: The 2nd Munsters in France; A Regimental Calendar. Recreations: music, gardening, and golf. Address: Munster, Tilford, Farnham, Surrey.

* Both Censuses and BMD records record him as born in Somerset - Weston-super-Mare and Axbridge respectively.

Times 9-4-1935

post-6536-1171366238.png

Sources

National Archives - MIC Index

London Gazette Online.

Times Digital Archive.

1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 Censuses

BMD records

Royal Munster Fusiliers website.

Cricket Website on William Jervis' life.

Who's Who (via Xrferplus)

CWGC commission website (death of son)

Steve.

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