Football in the Great War

[peter__m]

This is just a thought that has come into my mind tonight.

I think it was seeing the post about the 'Gunners'.

Some initial questions perhaps to get you all going for me!

1. Who were the top footballers of the day who went off to fight?

2. Who came through the war and resumed their career?

3. Who, sadly, never played again?

4. Was there a great team of the times who lost a lot of players to the war?

*Probably seems like a silly thread topic but actually it would interest a lot of young people and would be a good way to introduce them to the more important great war themes.

I'll be able to tell my primary school boys some stories and they'll be captivated!

I'm sure there's some of you out there who knows loads about this.

Perhaps I'll even change my loyalties as a result!

Just realised that if I'm really into the Great War then perhaps I should be supporting the 'Gunners'.

[jay dubaya]

Just to start you off Peter there's also the ones that won a VC...

[peter__m]

Yes excellent.

Donald Bell - Bradford City?

This is the only footballer to ever win the VC?

[jay dubaya]

...my typo there's an old thread here

[peter__m]

Thanks.

I'm getting really into all this now. It's class!

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=5030&st=0

Excellent thread.

[Greyhound]

And this recent one!

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...7&hl=celtic

[peter__m]

Aw what an amazing wee link.

Thanks so much.

William Angus VC - what can I say.

Very moving stuff.

[peter__m]

William Angus VC - what can I say.

[peter__m]

Just found this.

'At the beginning of the 1914 football season, Hearts was Scotland's most successful team, winning eight games in succession. On 26th November, 1914, every member of the team joined the British Army. This event had a major impact on the public and inspired footballers and their fans to enlist. Many professional players, joined the 1st Football Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment.

Seven members of the Hearts team never returned to Scotland. Three of the men, Harry Wattie, Duncan Currie and Ernie Ellis, were killed on the first day of the Somme offensive. Another member of the team, 22 year old Paddy Crossan, was so badly injured that his right leg was labeled for amputation. He pleaded with the German surgeon not to operate. He told him: "I need my legs - I'm a footballer." He agreed to his request and managed to save his leg. Crossan survived the war but later died as a result of his lungs being destroyed by poison gas.'

[nittenman]

Wullie rocks!

Keith

[peter__m]

I'd like to try and gather some info / details on any of the men we post about.

Doesn't seem right that they're just mentioned in passing.

So please help me out if you can.

[peter__m]

Name: TULL, WALTER DANIEL JOHN

Initials: W D J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Middlesex Regiment

Unit Text: 17th Bn. attd. 23rd Bn.

Secondary Unit Text: (formerly 5th Bn.)

Age: 29

Date of Death: 25/03/1918

Additional information: Son of the late Daniel Tull; brother of Edward Tull-Warnock, of 419, St. Vincent St., Glasgow. Former professional footballer with Tottenham Hotspurs and Northampton Town. He played more than a hundred first team games for Northampton Town before the First World War intervened.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 7.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

[peter__m]

* 'Walter Tull, was another outstanding footballer who abandoned his career and offered his services to the British Army. Tull, who had played for and Northampton Town, joined the 1st Football Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment. The Army soon recognised Tull's leadership qualities and he was promoted to the rank of sergeant. In July 1916, Tull took part in the major Somme offensive. Tull survived this experience but in December 1916 he developed trench fever and was sent home to England to recover.

Tull had impressed his senior officers and recommended that he should be considered for further promotion. When he recovered from his illness, instead of being sent back to France, he went to the officer training school at Gailes in Scotland. Despite military regulations forbidding "any negro or person of colour" being an officer, Tull received his commission in May, 1917.

Lieutenant Tull was sent to the Italian front. This was an historic occasion because Tull was the first ever black officer in the British Army. He led his men at the Battle of Piave and was mentioned in dispatches for his "gallantry and coolness" under fire.

Walter Tull stayed in Italy until 1918 when he was transferred to France to take part in the attempt to break through the German lines on the Western Front. On 25th March, 1918, 2nd Lieutenant Tull was ordered to lead his men on an attack on the German trenches at Favreuil. Soon after entering No Mans Land Tull was hit by a German bullet. Tull was such a popular officer that several of his men made valiant efforts under heavy fire from German machine-guns to bring him back to the British trenches. These efforts were in vain as Tull had died soon after being hit. Tull's body was never found. Eleven former members of Tottenham Hotspur were killed during the First World War.'

*not sure what book this is taken from

[peter__m]

I'm sure all these young men are in that Hearts war-players photo. It's quite moving to think about it.

Name: WATTIE, HENRY

Initials: H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Scots

Unit Text: 16th Bn.

Age: 23

Date of Death: 01/07/1916

Service No: 19112

Additional information: Former Heart of Midlothian Football Club player.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 6 D and 7 D.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Name: CURRIE, DUNCAN

Initials: D

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment/Service: Royal Scots

Unit Text: 16th Bn.

Age: 23

Date of Death: 01/07/1916

Service No: 18999

Additional information: Former Heart of Midlothian Football Club player.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 6 D and 7 D.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Name: ELLIS, ERNEST EDGAR

Initials: E E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Scots

Unit Text: 16th Bn.

Age: 30

Date of Death: 01/07/1916

Service No: 19009

Additional information: Son of Harry and Marie Ellis, of 236, Sprowston Rd., Norwich; husband of Isobel Ellis, of 25, Tarvit St., Edinburgh. Former Heart of Midlothian Football Club player.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 6 D and 7 D.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

[roel22]

One or two years ago we had a book published in Holland about historic football-players. One of the stories was about Henry Wattie and his Hearts-colleagues.

A great book - if you read Dutch...

Roel

[roel22]

Name: CROSSAN, PATRICK

Initials: P

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Unit Text: 4th Bn.

Age: 31

Date of Death: 03/09/1916

Service No: 4635

N.B.: PLEASE NOTE This casualty was accepted for commemoration by the Commission. However, it will not be possible to add his name to this Memorial immediately. Please contact the Commission before planning a visit, for more information.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Addenda Panel.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Any ideas why his name hasn't been added to the memorial yet, so many years after the war?

Roel

[CROONAERT]

One of the big names of his day (and modern footballers have a lot to thank this man and his teammates for )...

Name: TURNBULL, ALEXANDER (SANDY)

Initials: A (S)

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Serjeant

Regiment/Service: East Surrey Regiment

Unit Text: 8th Bn.

Age: 33

Date of Death: 03/05/1917

Service No: 28427

Additional information: Son of James and Jessie Turnbull, of I, Gibson St., Kilmarnock, Ayrshire; husband of Florence Amy Turnbull, of 17, Portland Rd., Gorse Hill, Stretford, Manchester. A Professional Footballer (won FA Cup medals pre-war with Manchester City and United).

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 6.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

Dave

[A.A.Savery]

Hi Peter,

Great idea and I am in complete agreement with you for your reasons for doing it.

There are some very interesting facts and names on this site.

http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/exhi...all/page2.shtml

Cheers,

Tony

[stevemfc]

hi peter theres a intresting piece on leyton orients web site under history of clapton orient about there great war players who died its clapton orient brothers in arms hope you find it of intrest

[peter__m]

Thanks guys. More great stuff you're leading me to ...

[peter__m]

'Many footballers joined the Army on an individual basis. For example, 11 members of Tottenham Hotspur were killed during the war fighting with various units. One former Spurs player who survived was Vivian Woodward, who played for Clacton, Harwich and Parkestone and Chelmsford before joining Tottenham in 1902. With 19 goals in 27 matches he was Tottenham’s top scorer in the 1908 season when they were promoted to Division One.

Woodward later joined Chelsea and played for them until the outbreak of war. In 1914 he joined the Rifle Brigade, but later became a Captain in the 17th Batallion, The Middlesex Regiment. He was wounded in 1916 and never played football again. Woodward won 16 of his 23 full international caps while he was playing for a non-league club. He also played in 44 amateur internationals, including the 1908 and 1912 Olympics, scoring 58 goals. His best performance came in England’s first amateur international against France in 1906, when he scored eight goals.'

GOALS FOR ENGLAND

49 (106) - Bobby Charlton (1958-70)

48 (80) - Gary Lineker (1984-92)

44 (57) - Jimmy Greaves (1959-67)

32 (70) - Michael Owen (1998-2005)

30 (76) - Tom Finney (1946-58)

30 (33) - Nat Lofthouse (1951-59)

30 (63) - Alan Shearer (1992-2000)

29 (23) - Vivian Woodward (1903-11)

28 (23) - Steve Bloomer (1895-1907)

27 (62) - David Platt (1989-96)

26 (90) - Bryan Robson (1980-91)

24 (49) - Geoff Hurst (1966-72)

23 (25) - Stanley Mortensen (1947-54)

22 (23) - Tommy Lawton (1939-49)

21 (46) - Mick Channon (1972-77)

21 (63) - Kevin Keegan (1972-82)

20 (67) - Martin Peters (1966-74)

He scored 4 hat-tricks for England.

He also bagged another 51 goals in 44 amateur internationals.

http://www.englandfc.com/Profiles/php/Play...ame.php?id=1092

Am I wrong here or has Viv not got the best stats of the lot of them?

[peter__m]

I can't find a good full size picture of him.

Does anyone else have one?

[peter__m]

The Gentleman Player-Vivian Woodward

VIVIAN WOODWARD.

“THE GENTLEMAN PLAYER”

1879-1954.

Born in Kennington, South London, the year 1879,

moved to Clacton, with his family as a boy.

His father hated football as cricket was his game,

perhaps his son would like it too, his pride and joy.

The College he attended was called “Ascham”,

with a brilliant up and coming football team.

In one of their games he excelled himself

and that was the start of a dream.

The Clacton Gazette had noticed him

and wrote in the paper that day.

“Woodward’s unselfish play noticeable”,

what a shame others can’t be that way.

With division two championships well in hand,

the only way now was up.

His skills improving with every game,

winning the Essex Junior Cup.

Aged twenty one he moved to Chelmsford

and after a good look around,

played games for Harwich and Parkeston

and also for Colchester Town.

In 1902 he was picked to play,

for the South at Whiteheart Lane.

Once again he shone and was spotted by Spurs

and for twelve years was their best known name.

His first England game against Ireland,

was in February, the year1903.

Once again with the “magic” in his boots,

England won a 4-0 victory.

For the next ten years as a regular,

he Captained England’s winning teams.

Carrying the flag at the Olympic games,

the fulfillment of many a dream.

But by far the greatest moment,

in Paris, came England v France.

The year 1908 and make no mistake,

15-0, they were thrashed, with no chance.

Woodward the hero, netted eight of those goals,

the like of it not seen before.

Lean and fast as a Greyhound,

again and again, he scored.

In 1908, it was Holland’s turn,

Stamford Bridge, at the Chelsea ground.

Once again Woodward netted another 6,

the cheers could be heard miles around.

After many more games he joined Chelsea,

then came the outbreak of war.

Special leave from the Army was granted,

back to normal and football once more.

His sporting attitude was second to none,

before games players hands he would shake.

After tackles, no grudges or fighting,

a leaf from his book, more should take.

His final season in 1919,

would fulfill his Father’s dream.

At forty years old he would take up the bat

and Captain Essex County Cricket Team.

After retirement from Football,

came a Farm and some Pigeon racing.

The running of a Dairy in Frinton,

with ease, his life he was pacing.

During his time with the Middlesex Regiment,

where he’d been wounded, he often felt poor.

In a London Nursing Home all alone,

he died at age seventy four.

Vivian Woodward will always remain,

for the great sport that he chose to play.

“The Gentleman Player”, remembered with pride,

“Centre Forward”, of his day.

Elaine Fearn

[Steve Bramley]

Peter,

I'm pretty sure that Steve Bloomer (Just below Woodward) in the list was a P.O.W. in Ruhrleben, for the duration of the war.

Steve.

[Tom Morgan]

An oft-quoted part of West Bromwich Albion history is how Tommy Magee started to play football in the army and while in the trenches, signed up to play for Albion after the war. I don't know who else was there with the authority to sign him up, but that's the story.

Tom