Is selling Somme Relics legal?

[rob K]

With regards to previous posts on this topic, the locals i met in the Somme area certainly did use metal detectors illegal or not.Mostly at night and if you have ever been through the lanes and fields on the Somme area at night you will know that a couple of detectors could easily go un-noticed.

One occasion i was there word went round that a British officer had been found,(Parts of sam brown and insignia had been found by detector /French and local!) this was a closely guarded secret and the locals were all sat in the corner of a bar wispering about it. I have never seen anything like it,it was quite macabre.

A plan was actually made to go out the next night to, I suppose dig furthur around the British officer. from the conversation,they planned to take anything of significance and then infrom the Commonwealth Graves Commission.This happened alot apparently.At the time cap badges found locally were worth the there weight in gold,in fact any personal items were.

I did not attend the next night and voiced my disproval of the whole plan,it seemed that anything was fair game and the outcome was always financial.

It really was an economy based on WW1 relics,One final point on the detector topic.I know of one local who found a cache of Roman coins allowing him to buy a cafe and house outright!

[towisuk]

As most of the plundering of remains etc for badges, buckles and anything else they can find seems to be financial, the answer is simple for all who value the memory of the men lost in The Great War.....................Don't buy anything.

Obviously without a market in which to sell their shoddy booty, the local "metaldetectorists" would spend their evenings at home watching TF1

Regards

Tom

[auchonvillerssomme]

Mick

As you don't appear to be happy with the "experts" info, and as you have a home on the somme, why not try asking your local mairie? or your local gendarme, you might just get the same amount of info.

Then will you share the info here, it just might then sink in and stop going around in circles.

Actually Willy I agree with you but maybe my sarcasm was lost. I have asked and the answer was that the area was indistinct and that there was an amount of discretion and interpretation. It would also depend on the problems that region had. I got the feeling that if the gendarme was driving past a field and saw you in it, maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. The 'expert' question was intended both ways...the ones that say yes and the ones that say no. Someone else likened it to the issue of riding a bicycle on a footpath in the UK....yes its illegal, it annoys a lot of people but its not always enforced and a hell of a lot of people do it.

Personally I wouldn't detect although I have done so many years ago in the UK. It is obviously a subject that gets under a lot of peoples skin but realistically any metal detectorist will tell you that on the ground detecting in any area with so much metal is pretty unrewarding. ... Much easier to buy a few restrike badges, immerse them in battery acid for a few hours and there you have the badge or shoulder title that great grandad wore on the Somme. Has no one noticed that the relic badges being sold all appear to have deteriorated in the same way. Its much easier to do that then spend the night with a torch and a continuous bleep in your ear. Buy a silver watch from a boot sale, ask your local shoe repair man to engrave Lt Smith 15 West Yorks on it, give it a bit of a bash and see the dosh roll in.

Mick

[willy]

Mick

What I can't get my head around is that people keep battering on about as you say it being unrewarding to use a detector, clearly due to the vast amount of iron debris, but why then do you see them from time to time in the early hours of the morning?

My experiences of those "field walking" in the dark, is that nearly everytime there is a british registered car nearby.

[Guest tafski]

[

My experiences of those "field walking" in the dark, is that nearly everytime there is a british registered car nearby.

right willy next time we go over we take the 4x4 tally hooooo as fox hunting is banned we go detector hunting

tafski

[MartH]

In the foothills of the Pyrenees around Rennes Le Bains and Renne Le Chateau, there are many metal detector enthusiasts, called treasure hunters looking for Roman, Cather and Visigoth treasure, (they maintain that the Visgoths sacked Rome and hid the treasure) . I personal have seen several emerge from the undergrowth metal detector in hand.

The Treasure hunters have a famous annual Christmas do in all place Lille, several thousand attend. Many people have metal detectors.

Regards

Mart

[Guest tafski]

so the 4x4 no good then a squadron of cheiftains required

tafski

[willy]

Looks like this years Xmas outing for me is going to be in Lille then! lol

[dutchbarge]

So, if I owned a piece of land in France, and a metal detector, it would be illegal for me to a, possess the metal detector and b, to use it on my own land?

Any reliable source for that information?

BOSH! French and Belgium farmers living and working on known battlefields own metal detectors and use them all the time before plowing and harrowing.

[dutchbarge]

Metal detectng is utterly, totally and completely illegal on every battlefield in France.

Forget this nonsense about it's OK here and not there. Surprisingly, perhaps laws apply right across the country in France (and most other countries save the USA).

Anyone even caught with a detector in their car can look forward to a fine of up to 10,000 €. The court at Verdun hands down the maximum penalty several times a year.

Of course, if you don't want to pay a fine you can always dig up a nice big shell and throw it in the back of our car.

[/quote

Whoops. Sorry, but it certainly IS illegal to souvenir hunt or metal detect in the USA on ANY National historical site, Government property (including parks, military preserves, etc.) and ALL other Federally protected areas on the continent (N America) both public AND private as well as US Territories and Protectorates. Local governments have their own restrictions. The penalties are very severe as they should be. And on private land, at least where I live in New Mexico (where there are many valuable Indian relics) the penaly for doing so includes the possibility of being shot by the land owner. But regarding Western Front WW1 war souvenirs and relics this is all a relatively new issue. Years ago no one seemed much interested in what you dug up and dragged home. If you got permission from the farmer he certainly didn't care (especially if you gave him a few francs). France certainly didn't care. The immense amount of WW1 battle bric-a-brac all over the world certainly attests to this! Here in the USA veterans were allowed until relatively recently to bring home DeWAT (deactivated war trophy) automatic weapons, inert munitions etc. Sometimes the government might even give you an MG08 or Kalishnakov if they thought you deserving. Or a Sherman tank. And I'm talking about individuals, not VFW Halls. REALLY. But with more and more people leaving the wide open spaces (at least in America) to live in the cities (and bringing their munitions with them) the practices had to be curtailed. My experiences of living in England would lead me to believe that as crowded as it has become, nobody but an idiot would welcome holiday makers digging up and bringing home (via the Chunnel, ferry or flight) live munitions. As in almost every faucet of modern life over crowding has put a wet blanket and much that was fun (even if suicidal for the perpetrator). Bill

[willy]

BOSH! French and Belgium farmers living and working on known battlefields own metal detectors and use them all the time before plowing and harrowing.

So they might, but to do it legally they would need to comply with the procedures as contained in post 191 of this thread, do it illegally and suffer the consequences.

[gew98]

Myself ; I am not in the least bothered with battlefield archeaology. If it finds 'lost' remains , and better yet identifies them in any way all the better.

As a collector as well I also feel that battlefields are not sacred like a cemetary is. For if that were the case 99% of the surface would not be accessable to anyone for the subject at hand.

Here is a link to peruse - more recent war , but very topical.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=248655

And another :

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=259732

And yet antoher ;

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ad.php?t=194678

And lastly this thread. Probably the best on the whole battlefield dig subject - well my opinion anyway.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ghlight=spin777

I find it a bit silly for some fellows to say how "remains" make them well feel "icky" and to discuss such makes them even more uncomfortable. I spent 12 years in uniform and worked in a salvage environment where I had the displeasure of 3 coworkers/friends killed on the job over the span of less than a decade - one oddly enough by a naval shell stuffed in an old rusty pipe he had the misfortune to shear.

Anyhow I feel strongly that identifying the remains and placing them in a cemetary outweighs the odd emotional sentiment of let them rot where they lay. It's not like it's a submarine or ship that has become a recognized grave where it's certain whom survived and whom not so there is little question where their remains would be.

[gew98]

Mick

What I can't get my head around is that people keep battering on about as you say it being unrewarding to use a detector, clearly due to the vast amount of iron debris, but why then do you see them from time to time in the early hours of the morning?

My experiences of those "field walking" in the dark, is that nearly everytime there is a british registered car nearby.

Willy ; what was the name of that brit TV program with that hot round butted "natasha" where they follwed and researched metal detecting finds across the UK. God was she a hotty...but some of the things the metal detecting enthusiasts found - amazing !.

I do recall all the historical items became property of the UK , but a reward ( percentage of the value ) was paid to the finder... sort of like a bonus for the dedicated hobbyist. He makes a great find , gets paid well for it , and it stays in country in a state museum. Not a bad system in those regards.

[Desdichado]

Dutchbarge, nobody can use deadly force to evict a trespasser, even in New Mexico ;-)

A couple of years ago, I visited Vietnam with my American wife. We visited Hue and travelled with a guide down the Perfumed River to an old U.S Army outpost. It had been overrun during the first few hours of the Tet offensive in 1968, but some survivors made it back to the citadel alive. Anyway, there had been a recent rainstorm and the topsoil at the site had been eroded. I saw cartridge cases and the remains of a Soviet-made pistol poking out of the ground. In one spot lay several .45 cases where an officer had probably stood firing his pistol. Some tatty olive-drab webbing was visible too. Our guide asked us not to remove anything and we told him that we had no intention of doing so. This pleased him as he was a former South Vietnamese regular, and he told us that he hardly ever took tourists to the spot as he fought alongside many of the American soldiers who were there. As in France, you can buy any amount of fake Vietnam war equipment in Saigon, and a lot of real stuff too. In Hanoi, you can buy splinters from bombs dropped by B-52s or artwork made from the casings of unexploded bombs. I was offered a wristwatch that supposedly came from a dead B-52 crewman. It was not engraved and its former owner could not be identified otherwise I would have purchased it and tried somehow to return it to his family.

As for metal detecting there, forget it. It's way too dangerous.

[dutchbarge]

Hola Captain,

Really enjoyed your posting on your experience in Vietnam. Regarding the legality of shooting at trespassers in New Mexico I can tell you this: Technically there must be the preception of eminent death or grievous bodily harm before one is legally justified to use lethal force on your property or elsewhere. New Mexico is still a pretty wild unpopulated place full of people who don't know that the 19th century is over and the circumstances, ie. who the shooter is (and who he knows), who the victim is (or was), frame of mind of those involved vis-vie preception of threat, jurisdiction the event took place, who the judge is, socio-economic circumstances, etc., leave this law open to very broad intrepretation. You wouldn't believe the stuff that happens here! May sound foolhardy but that's one of the reasons we enjoy living here. I could do a year long thread of things here that would curl your hair! Cheers, Bill

[Kirkes Lamb]

Slightly off topic - I visited El Alamein a couple of years ago and was horrified when I visited the German War Memorial and was shown around by the enthusiastic Egyptian caretaker. Having got my interest, he then asked me if I was interested in badges-I said why and he then showed me a box full of badges, buttons, ID tags, brass cigarette cases (engraved with either British or German names) and all sorts of other things he had obviously taken from the battlefield and I guess in the case of ID tage -off the bodies.

I was of course horriefied and subsequently wrote to both the British Embassy and CWGC but never heard a word!

[Matt Dixon]

I have spent over 20 years visiting the battlefields and have never found anything. Perhaps I need better glasses.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Matt, are you sure you visited the battlefields in France and werent taken to Norfolk on a boat, lol. You dont need to look for relics they jump out at you. Maybe you are going out at the wrong time of year.

Kevin

[Matt Dixon]

It doesn't seem to matter when I go. Then again I don't want any relics so I'm not really that bothered about it!

[Guest KevinEndon]

I bet the first time you find a shrapnel ball it goes in the pocket, just remember not to put it in your back pocket because as soon as you sit down you will be reminded of the suffering and pain caused by these things 90 years ago.

I feel that metal things found in a field should be saved i.e. a button, a capbadge, a shrapnel ball, a nose cone off a shell or a bullet case. They not only allow you to remember your trip, they allow you to tell a tale of what it was and where it was found. They even get the mind racing as to how it got there.

When we were out in March last year we found some human bones, one a complete collar bone. We buried these with respect in an area where they should never be ploughed up again. A fitting tribute to someone.

Kevin

[Rob Connolly]

Very interesting thread, I hadn't realised that there was such a market for WW1 relics. Surely - surely! - the tales of folks hoisting unexploded ordnance into car boots is apocryphal? I also read with alarm that PBI calculates there are 12 Trillion tons of UX ordnance on the Western Front ...

When I worked as an assistant on a dig in Manchester, the site manager bought a couple of kilos of steel nails and spent an afternoon knocking them into soil across the site, since he'd overheard a spectator talking about coming back with a metal detector.

[Gunner Bailey]

Very interesting thread, I hadn't realised that there was such a market for WW1 relics. Surely - surely! - the tales of folks hoisting unexploded ordnance into car boots is apocryphal? I also read with alarm that PBI calculates there are 12 Trillion tons of UX ordnance on the Western Front ...

Rob

The market is growing all the time. There are specialist markets in France and Belgium, 'Bource aux Armes' where huge amounts of WW1 and WW2 material is sold. Prices are escalating at about 15% a year with things like WW1 German helmets selling for very high prices. Last time I called at Tommies cafe I was told they did not have a single item left for sale, normally they have loads but the increase in school parties visiting the front had stretched even Dominique's resources.

Drive through the main Somme area at almost any time and you will see someone walking the fields looking for items dug up by the plough. these will mainly be local people who add this to their income.

The EOD authorities dispose of around 60,000 tons of unexpoded shells a year, and yes, people do pick up shells and other items left out for the EOD teams and take them home. Last year about three people were stopped at Dover / Channel tunnel and arrested for having items like Stokes Mortar rounds in the their car boots, still potentially live.

Gunner Bailey

[Rob Connolly]

I can see that this is a de facto sub-culture that I had never suspected existed. I haven't yet been to any WW1 battlefields, due to lack of £££, but I stand forewarned for when I do.

60,000 tons per year? Yikes! Those who deliberately nick UX ordnance are surely prime candidates for the Darwin Award.

[59165]

I've looked in on this thread now & again for some time &,in response to the original question,yes.

Selling Somme relics is legal,depending on what.

The sale of safe ordnance & bayonettes etc.is not allowed at the Albert museum.

It was at Le Tommy's but Dom's been curbed a bit.Having said that,he is selling loads to the tourists at the moment(last 8 months or so)

The sale of safe ordnance & bayonettes etc.is allowed at Sailly Saisell(God I can say the name but not spell it)which is a very big bourse & attracts all the digging vermin of dept.80 to flog their wares.

It is full of Brits every July.

Truth is,a bayonet & even a gas mask is illegal to sell in France &,if in a shop,police will seize goods.

Grenades?Dont even go there yet,at the country sales(bourses aux armes,Albert,Peronne etc.)I could have bought anything I wished & yes,there was Genderme presence.

Go figure....

[Gunner Bailey]

It was at Le Tommy's but Dom's been curbed a bit.Having said that,he is selling loads to the tourists at the moment(last 8 months or so)

Dave

When I dropped into Tommies at the end of January they didn't even have a shrapnal ball for sale. Completely cleaned out - no stock.

Gunner Bailey